Capitalism worked

[Libsmasher]

I note that here and other places, the usual mob of statist dimwits grabs the microphone to announce that the subprime debacle "proves" that Capitalism doesn't work. Au contraire, it worked perfectly. Capitalism works to remove the irrational and ignorant from the marketplace. In so doing, it redirects society's scarce capital to the rational and productive. If someone rolls the dice and buys a house they can't afford, capitalism works to reallocate that house to someone who will pay for it. Ah, but aren't a lot of houses empty? That's because builders rolled the dice in the same way betting on an ever growing market for houses. The same with Fannie Mae - they accepted questionable loan bundles.

Now, the government is bailing everyone out. (I guess it's necessary to point out for the slow-witted that that is NOT capitalism.) What lesson will the risk-taking borrowers, lenders, builders, and others take from the bailout? It's that the next time the market is rising fast - go ahead and gamble and take wild risks. If you fail, the government will bail you out, and everyone will blame everything on "capitalism".

 

[UShadItComing]

The US is failing libs, because the US brand of capitalism is failing. If you want to blame that on infiltration by the socialists then be my guest. Maybe Canada is more capitalist and is not being infiltrated by the socialists. Wilder and crazier ieas have sometimes come to be true.

I kinda doubt it.

 

[Andy]

The US is failing libs, because the US brand of capitalism is failing. If you want to blame that on infiltration by the socialists then be my guest. Maybe Canada is more capitalist and is not being infiltrated by the socialists. Wilder and crazier ieas have sometimes come to be true.

I kinda doubt it.

Right, an expanding economy is a sign of failing Capitalism? Very logical.

 

[Libsmasher]

The US is failing libs, because the US brand of capitalism is failing. If you want to blame that on infiltration by the socialists then be my guest. Maybe Canada is more capitalist and is not being infiltrated by the socialists. Wilder and crazier ieas have sometimes come to be true.

I kinda doubt it.

If nothing else, Canadians are too COLD to be capitalists - how can you buy and sell when your fingers and toes are numb and frostbit?

 

[UShadItComing]

If nothing else, Canadians are too COLD to be capitalists - how can you buy and sell when your fingers and toes are numb and frostbit?

Silly kid has never even gone to the trouble of finding out that the heavily populated areas in Canada are mostly warmer than a lot of the US. Wouldn't believe it anyway if he was told that when it's 32F in Vancouver it's usually about -10 in Colorado or some other of the hick states.

 

[Andy]

Silly kid has never even gone to the trouble of finding out that the heavily populated areas in Canada are mostly warmer than a lot of the US. Wouldn't believe it anyway if he was told that when it's 32F in Vancouver it's usually about -10 in Colorado or some other of the hick states.

I agree. That's about as stupid as looking at a growing economy and saying the system on which it was built doesn't work.

 

[UShadItComing]

Do you believe in global warming yet Andy? The AC360 hit on that as the last issue. If China and India go to dirty coal then in about 10 years (I think they said 2020 or something like that) they will put 5 times more carbon into the atmosphere than Kyoto was originally meant to eliminate. The only way to prevent that would be for the US to aid them two in bringing on clean coal technology. The remark: Can anyone imagine US workers being asked to contribute more in taxes to do that? No-brainer. But if you don't believ in global warming and carbon as greenhouse gas then you won't even identify with that one. If you do, try not to think about it too much.

 

[GraceAustin]

I note that here and other places, the usual mob of statist dimwits grabs the microphone to announce that the subprime debacle "proves" that Capitalism doesn't work. Au contraire, it worked perfectly. Capitalism works to remove the irrational and ignorant from the marketplace. In so doing, it redirects society's scarce capital to the rational and productive. >>>>>

Wow. I'm new here, so am not sure that your pronouncement isn't sarcasm, so will reserve my opinion of it.
Obviously, capitalism can be a boon to all societies, drawing in the best minds to make that better mouse trap. I've rather enjoyed watching upstarts break through the 'status quo' & do just that, like Bill Gates did. Of course capitalism works. What doesn't work, is unrestrained capitalism that preys on society. It's a sad fact that there exists predators within our capitalistic society. Easy enough to be proactive, & set down rules. Rules like you can't dump drugs into the marketplace which kill people. Or food. Or loans which drag down our economy. We've had Fannie&Freddie for decades, helping people own their own homes. It all went rather well, until the lending system was deregulated, & some greedy capitalists stepped over the bounds without oversight. Capitalism can't be relegated to a free for all. The very nature of human behavior requires boundaries be set.

 

[Sihouette]

The US was founded in capitalistic ideals when the country had faith and morality.

However, capitalism in the absence of morality becomes ruthless monopolies; and from there, still in the absence of morality and empathy, capitalism eventually sinks into downright fascism.

That's where BigOil is today, murdering people in the Middle East to preserve its monopoly....sans morality...in pure and true fascist form.

 

[UShadItComing]

GraceAustin and Sihouette, now we're getting somewhere! I'm so pleased that we at least have a common ground from which to begin.

 

[SW85]

capitalism eventually sinks into downright fascism.

This happened here decades and decades ago. It is not happenstance that the New Deal partly occurred at the same time as the rise of national socialism elsewhere in the west, what Mussolini characterized as corporatism.

 

[GraceAustin]

The US was founded in capitalistic ideals when the country had faith and morality.

However, capitalism in the absence of morality becomes ruthless monopolies; and from there, still in the absence of morality and empathy, capitalism eventually sinks into downright fascism.

That's where BigOil is today, murdering people in the Middle East to preserve its monopoly....sans morality...in pure and true fascist form.

Perhaps it's a human frailty that money & the power it brings changes some people. I honestly believe that the 'super powerful' actually think they're right in the choices they make, & that they actually view themselves to be superior. FDR recognized this frailty, and took the steps to assure dynasties would not be built. Of course a conservative movement has sought to dismantle that, to our detriment. Unfortunately, the sophistication of this movement taps into the psychological immaturity of many conservative constituents, & all they focus on is making liberals their enemy while they ignore what's right in front of them. And while they do nothing more than attack liberals, & liberals attack back, the dynasties get bigger and more powerful. In the end, we all lose. So now the question is, how do we change that?

 

[UShadItComing]

GraceAustin- Is it the fault of the media. Look at how they have forced the politicians to play to the masses. How can any politician put forward a progressive agenda when he/she is prevented from telling the real story about what needs to be done? For example: Say something I like and I'll lick your boots right into the voting booth. Never mind what's good for the country.

It happens in all countries but maybe the US has progressed faster down that road. And now what chance is there of ever seeing non-partisan politics again for the good of everyone? Some Americans on this forum freely admit they don't even want to consider the possibility.

 

[Andy]

What doesn't work, is unrestrained capitalism that preys on society. It's a sad fact that there exists predators within our capitalistic society. Easy enough to be proactive, & set down rules. Rules like you can't dump drugs into the marketplace which kill people. Or food.

See, there is I get lost on the logic. You claim there is unrestrained Capitalism, that is evident by people dumping drugs into the market place that kill people.

But wait, couldn't that be in any society under any economic system? Why yes it could, and in fact it does.

What you are talking about is simply justice. The idea that murder is wrong. I agree with this. But this has nothing to do with Capitalism.

Or loans which drag down our economy. We've had Fannie&Freddie for decades, helping people own their own homes. It all went rather well, until the lending system was deregulated, & some greedy capitalists stepped over the bounds without oversight.

But Fannie mae and Freddie Mac, are not good examples. Both were government sponsored corporations (socialism) that didn't have to follow the same legal rules that every other loan corporation did. This isn't a free market capitalism where everyone is equal under the law. There were specific favored corps that had exclusive rights to disregard the law. And it resulted in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, crashing.

This wasn't some greedy capitalists stepping over the bounds. This was socialists who's government oversight was selectively not enforced. In fact, many in government (republicans) complained that the accounting and loan approval was sloppy and lousy at Fannie mae, a long time before the crash.

Capitalism can't be relegated to a free for all. The very nature of human behavior requires boundaries be set.

Enforcing the law has nothing to do with Capitalism. Enforcing the law is required by human nature no matter where you are in the world, or what system you live under.

And by the way, the loan issue causing economic problems has nothing to do with Capitalism either. It has to do with people borrowing money to buy things they can't afford. I don't care what laws you put in place, when people charge up credit cards, and take out loans for things they can't afford, and buy houses they have no ability to pay for... there is going to be an economic crash at some point. That's all there is too it. Name one person who didn't borrow money and ended up filing for bankruptcy? Yes Chase sucks, but it's still the individual that opens the account and buys a ton of garbage and then wonders how to pay off $20K in debt when they earn $25K a year.

 

[Pandora]

See, there is I get lost on the logic. You claim there is unrestrained Capitalism, that is evident by people dumping drugs into the market place that kill people.

But wait, couldn't that be in any society under any economic system? Why yes it could, and in fact it does.

What you are talking about is simply justice. The idea that murder is wrong. I agree with this. But this has nothing to do with Capitalism.



But Fannie mae and Freddie Mac, are not good examples. Both were government sponsored corporations (socialism) that didn't have to follow the same legal rules that every other loan corporation did. This isn't a free market capitalism where everyone is equal under the law. There were specific favored corps that had exclusive rights to disregard the law. And it resulted in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, crashing.

This wasn't some greedy capitalists stepping over the bounds. This was socialists who's government oversight was selectively not enforced. In fact, many in government (republicans) complained that the accounting and loan approval was sloppy and lousy at Fannie mae, a long time before the crash.



Enforcing the law has nothing to do with Capitalism. Enforcing the law is required by human nature no matter where you are in the world, or what system you live under.

And by the way, the loan issue causing economic problems has nothing to do with Capitalism either. It has to do with people borrowing money to buy things they can't afford. I don't care what laws you put in place, when people charge up credit cards, and take out loans for things they can't afford, and buy houses they have no ability to pay for... there is going to be an economic crash at some point. That's all there is too it. Name one person who didn't borrow money and ended up filing for bankruptcy? Yes Chase sucks, but it's still the individual that opens the account and buys a ton of garbage and then wonders how to pay off $20K in debt when they earn $25K a year.

Very well said Andy!