Circus at Saddleback

[Pandora]

First, let's get my position on abortion clear: I am an agnostic, and none of my opinion about abortion is or ever has been informed by religious doctrine. The first trimester cutoff, and other arbitrary "magic numbers" are UTTERLY devoid of any basis in science or ethics. I have said before that there should be a real national debate - I emphasize "REAL" - based on the following two questions:

1. What IS human life?
2. When does it begin?

This should involve biologists, medical researchers, philosophers, and other potentially competent people to answer these questions. Ideological assertions of any kind ("A woman has a right to choose") are disallowed.

This REAL debate has NEVER occurred, because any possibility for it was cut short with Roe v. Wade, a judicial fiat that not only was not based on any real scientific or philosophical competence, it was also hignly flawed in the realm where the justices of the USSC were SUPPOSED to know what they were doing, the U.S. Constitution. There HAS been a lot of a posteriori pseduo-scientific justification.

Since such a resolution of the real issues has NOT yet taken place, my position is the following: since it is a reasonable hypothesis (after all, nobody doubts that fetuses at least BECOME live human beings) that abortion DOES kill a human being, then until the REAL debate takes place and the issues are resolved, which may even be resolved in favor of the pro-abortionists, prudent policy is that abortions be prohibited, and society take on the responsibility of unwanted children. Meantime, society effect those policies that decrease the number of unwanted children conceived.

Notice there is a feedback effect with legalized abortion - if abortions are readily available, and feminists have convinced women that fetuses are just a blob of cells, than many more women become pregnant with unwanted fetuses, since there is not much negative consequence for doing so.

Also note that there used to be a HUGE number of adoptions in this country - the number of adoptions fell way off after abortion came on the scene - the babies that would have been adopted were never born.

Here in essence is Obama's vs my position:

Obama:
"I'm for abortion, but I can't justify why I would support it."

Me:
"I don't know whether abortion is killing a live humen being or not, so the safe course is to prohibit it until it is determined whether or not abortion is the killing of a live human being."

Since the answer was not out of your "pay scale" perhaps you are more qualified to be the"one" instead of Obama

Libsmasher for president

 

[Libsmasher]

Since the answer was not out of your "pay scale" perhaps you are more qualified to be the"one" instead of Obama

Libsmasher for president

I would decline, because unlike Obama, I adopted the Clint Eastwood character's admonition: "A man's got to know his limitations."

 

[Pandora]

I would decline, because unlike Obama, I adopted the Clint Eastwood character's admonition: "A man's got to know his limitations."

I never asked you


If you could pick the republican nominee, who would you have wanted.

I know you are currently backing McCain but who was your first choice?


Mine was Mitt Romney

 

[Libsmasher]

I never asked you


If you could pick the republican nominee, who would you have wanted.

I know you are currently backing McCain but who was your first choice?


Mine was Mitt Romney

I would have chosen George Allen, the senator from virginia, who lost re-election by 1/3 of a percent in the 2006 elections, when voters were very anti-republican.

After that, Romney would have been the best, but the lib media was already playing to the traditional american anti-mormon bigotry when he was in the primaries, and if he were the candidate they would have stoked that till it was white hot. The republican party is at a low ebb after 12 years since Reagan of "moderate" republicans.

 

[Popeye]

I would have chosen George Allen, the senator from virginia, who lost re-election by 1/3 of a percent in the 2006 elections, when voters were very anti-republican.

After that, Romney would have been the best, but the lib media was already playing to the traditional american anti-mormon bigotry when he was in the primaries, and if he were the candidate they would have stoked that till it was white hot. The republican party is at a low ebb after 12 years since Reagan of "moderate" republicans.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that "anti Mormon bigotry" you speak of was exhibited in the Republican primaries...when members of your very own party refused to vote for Romney. Trying to blame Romney's loss on the "lib media" just doesn't fit the facts and is extremely disengenious.

 

[Libsmasher]

Correct me if I'm wrong but that "anti Mormon bigotry" you speak of was exhibited in the Republican primaries...when members of your very own party refused to vote for Romney. Trying to blame Romney's loss on the "lib media" just doesn't fit the facts and is extremely disengenious.

The christian right did have that attitude - the lib media knows it's latently there and whipped it up such as with their movie September Dawn, which tried to portray mormons in terms of one bad incident in their past, and relentlessly focussing on Romney's religion, while ignoring Obama's pastor as long as they could. Also note the sudden rash of mormon splinter group polygamy stories that popped up. Anti-mormonism is pervasive through many sections and groups in the country - the horrendous record of this country toward mormons is a matter of historical record.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I hope there will be youtubes exc so we can make fun of it.


Did he do any of the cute stuff? 57 states, great lakes in Oregon, I see dead vets....

NO he just talked about the Border of Afganistan and Iraq.. said the name of Georgia's President wrong a few times, then stated that Al Quida was going over back into Iran to get trained and going back to Iraq....Aslo what was the name of the football team whos line he used be the names of his squad in Nam? Packers or Stealers?

But yea keep with the trivial misspeaking , cuz we know McCain has never screwed up like that....

and Bush does on the hour...

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Rick Warren:
“Forty million abortions since Roe v. Wade. At what point does a baby get human rights in your view?”

Obama:
“Whether you are looking at it from a theological perspective or a scientific perspective, answering that question with specificity, you know, is above my pay grade. “

Ooooooooooooooooo - the "Intellectual" of the Age, but it's above his pay grade!

Sorry but I take that as a good Response and one that I have more or less given as well. Fact is who knows. Some say conception, some say birth, some at some point in the middle. some think Birth Control and condoms are murder....But you can speak for God I am sure and tell the world when ....

its a simple clear response that says, I am not sure, and that a higher power is the true judge of that...And I cant agree more. ( well ok if I belived in a God...but for the most part I dont)

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Hey Rob, Hi



Ah good point, but only for the reasonable..... With the far far left a babies life means nothing but a man who raped and murdered a baby and is on death row, their life is very valuable.

and by far far left you mean basicly a straw man.....

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Correct me if I'm wrong but that "anti Mormon bigotry" you speak of was exhibited in the Republican primaries...when members of your very own party refused to vote for Romney. Trying to blame Romney's loss on the "lib media" just doesn't fit the facts and is extremely disengenious.

I just asume that the facts are extreaming disengenious when libs states them

Yea it was all the liberal mead ...not the many Christians who came out saying mormons where not real Christians or any of that ...noooo blame the LIberal media.

I wish the I had a boogie man I could just blame everything on when things don't go my way. Wait I know why Biden lost, it was the Liberal Media...and why why did Bush win 2 terms? Its the Liberal Media...why did my car not start...Liberal Media.....


Look out the LIberal Media is waiting to get you

 

[BigRob]

Sorry but I take that as a good Response and one that I have more or less given as well. Fact is who knows. Some say conception, some say birth, some at some point in the middle. some think Birth Control and condoms are murder....But you can speak for God I am sure and tell the world when ....

its a simple clear response that says, I am not sure, and that a higher power is the true judge of that...And I cant agree more. ( well ok if I belived in a God...but for the most part I dont)

This is avoiding his answer. Given his voting history, he does not even believe that life begins at birth as he supported partial birth abortion.

His response basically said, I do not know when life begins, so I will err on the side of partial birth abortion. It was a clear dodge.

 

[Libsmasher]

Sorry but I take that as a good Response and one that I have more or less given as well.

It was a half-ass response, and I agree you couldn't have done any better.

Fact is who knows. Some say conception, some say birth, some at some point in the middle. some think Birth Control and condoms are murder....But you can speak for God I am sure and tell the world when ....

If you could read before you but your mouth in high blather gear, you would see that I said as much a few posts back.

its a simple clear response that says, I am not sure

You've completely missed the point I made earlier, if you even read it. Listening now??? THE POINT is that Obama honestly claims not to know the answer, yet he's a full-tilt supporter of abortion as if he knows the answer. Obama is therefore inconsistent on as key issue by his own words. Get it yet??

 

[Libsmasher]

I just asume that the facts are extreaming disengenious when libs states them

Yea it was all the liberal mead ...not the many Christians who came out saying mormons where not real Christians or any of that ...noooo blame the LIberal media.

I wish the I had a boogie man I could just blame everything on when things don't go my way. Wait I know why Biden lost, it was the Liberal Media...and why why did Bush win 2 terms? Its the Liberal Media...why did my car not start...Liberal Media.....


Look out the LIberal Media is waiting to get you

Too gutless to respond to my response to Popeye? Gosh, that makes you look cowardly as well as stupid.

 

[Pandora]

and by far far left you mean basicly a straw man.....

Far far left would be Obama, Pelosi, Dean, and others like them.

There are a ton of democrats who are more liberal on issues than lets say a republican, and some democrats are more conservative than liberal republicans. There are all kinds.

But when your ideas are

America is always the first one you blame

Yes you can kill babies even if they are fully formed and could live on their own

It’s the government’s job to make choices like this for you

It’s the government’s job to tell you what you can or can not do with your own land

The military is evil, we need to stop them at every turn.. you know people like code pink and Cindy Sheehan


And other things like that,

Those are things that the far far left believes


There are a ton of moderate Dems who believe in abortion in the first 3 months but not in your 9th and certainly not after the baby survived an abortion would the say kill it.

There are tons of democrats who would say hell No you won’t tell me what to do with my land

Lots of Dems do not like how public schools are ran, and they send their kids to charter schools or private schools

There are plenty of democrats who went to and are still in the service

 

[Pandora]

Correct me if I'm wrong but that "anti Mormon bigotry" you speak of was exhibited in the Republican primaries...when members of your very own party refused to vote for Romney. Trying to blame Romney's loss on the "lib media" just doesn't fit the facts and is extremely disengenious.

You are right on this, it was that horrible freak of nature the huckabump who did everything he could to turn chritians against Romney, and he still is doing everthing he can to keep McCain from picking Mitt, and its because he has differnt religous beliefs than that stupid snake huckabump

WOWOWOWO Popeye, we argree on something