Hope lingers to save U.S. autos from econ crisis

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top gun

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Andy;78067]The Chevy Aveo and Pontiac G3, gets 27/34 MPG. That's better than the Kia Rio, Honda Fit, Hyundai Accent, Nissan Versa, and Toyota Corolla.

The Ford Focus gets 24/33 MPG. That's better than the Mazda 3, Nissan Sentra, MINI Cooper, Mitsubishi Lancer, and Suzuki SX4.

The idea that domestic cars are all gas hogs is a unsupportable myth. I'll give you credit that it's conventional wisdom, and thus not simply something you made up. Nevertheless, people who want to paint the picture that the big three automakers only make low milage cars, tend to one-sidedly point out things like comparing Hummers and Yukons to Insights and Prius.

Andy Andy Andy... have ya ever even rode in a Chevy Aveo?:eek: There is no comparison whatsoever in quality, quietness or ride between that and a Toyota Corolla (of which my wife has owned 2) or the Mini Cooper or Honda Fit... and so I'm guessing the others also.

It's not that American car companies DON'T make some small fuel efficient cars. It's that those cars are on scale only fair quality.


But none of those are what the average buys is looking for. When you look into the average mid-size family sedan, domestics are very comparable, and in some cases better.

Then how come the Toyota Camry which cost MORE than many US five passenger mid-size cars kicks their butt all over the country?

What is even more amusing, is that when you look at the worst MPG cars on the market, they are all foreign.
While the Suburban, Jeep Commander and Explorer, all get 14/20 MPG, the worst cars are:
Lamborghini Roadster 8/13 MPG
Aston Martin DB9 11/17 MPG
Bentley Azure 9/15 MPG
Ferrari 612 Scaglietti 9/16 MPG
Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG 13/18 MPG.

A suburban would be a step up, milage wise, from all of these.

Andy, Andy, Andy. You posted a list of either top of the line luxury imports or street race cars. That's like saying Shelby, Saleen or Roush Mustangs or SRT Mopars are standard gas mileage American cars.:)

Again, domestic cars are not as fuel inefficient as people would like to claim. Ironically the cars complained about as being gas hogs are the ones GM is making money on.

And again NO ONE said that.:) What was said was when you look at the gas mileage of regular everyday cars in say England or Italy they as a part of overall production are much, MUCH more produced, advertised and sold than less fuel efficient cars.

But what makes it even more amusing is that people like Top Gun, keep mindlessly complaining that GM should make more of the cars people want... but wait, GM is the number one auto manufacturer in the world. GM sells more than any other auto company on this planet. Obviously, if they were not selling cars people want, they would not be outselling everyone on the planet.

What GM has done is steadily lost market share in the US. You may be totally clueless (I'm bettin') but as I travel out of the country I see all kinds of smaller American cars being sold out of the country that aren't even offered here... hence the do sell out of the country. And American trucks are still in use in most places as well.

What I've said is exactly what we are going to see happen. GM and all of the US automakers are going to start focusing on better quality, better warranty cars of small (Civic size) to Mid-size family (Camry size) and small Crossovers (CRV size) that get excellent fuel economy.
 

Andy

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Andy Andy Andy... have ya ever even rode in a Chevy Aveo?:eek: There is no comparison whatsoever in quality, quietness or ride between that and a Toyota Corolla (of which my wife has owned 2) or the Mini Cooper or Honda Fit... and so I'm guessing the others also.


I have not been in a Corolla, which of the few I know who have one, all say it's a pretty cheap car. Not bad, just... cheap. I have been in both the Cooper and the Fit, and they both suck. Aveo wasn't that much better or worse.

That said, I thought you were claiming domestic cars were gas hogs. That was the point I was disproving, and I did so. You are comparing other factors, which I think your claims are dubious, to try and disprove an unrelated point.

You also seem to be missing a major issue. We already established that domestic labor costs are higher than un-unionized imports. Assuming that you could be correct, that domestic autos are more cheaply built, is it possible this is due to compensating for higher labor costs? Is it possible that to off set the extra expenses in Union labor, that they have used cheaper material?

Then how come the Toyota Camry which cost MORE than many US five passenger mid-size cars kicks their butt all over the country?

Because reputation is a hard thing to break. It is undoubtedly true that in the past, domestic autos had a much more wide spread and noticeable quality control problem. However, I've had friends that just assumed all domestic cars are crap. In one case, the car he had was one of the least problematic of all domestic cars, but every time it broke down, he'd start complaining about how bad US car quality was.

Then he got a Honda, and it's had far more, and more expensive problems than his old Chevy ever did. My personal worst car was a foreign car. Nearly everything broke on it. I would have an easier time listing what didn't break. My best car was a Chevy Lumina. It had over 200K miles on it, and started up instantly even in the junk yard after I got rear-ended by a Mountaineer.


Andy, Andy, Andy. You posted a list of either top of the line luxury imports or street race cars. That's like saying Shelby, Saleen or Roush Mustangs or SRT Mopars are standard gas mileage American cars.:)

You missed the point. There is this odd claim that all foreign cars are these amazingly wonderful high gas milage cars. Not so. This is merely to defeat the claim, not to make a broad brush assumption about all imports.

But since you brought it up...
The Chevy Corvette gets 16/26 MPG.
The Ford Mustang gets 15/22 MPG.
And the Chrysler 300/SRT-8 gets 16/25.

Even the 6.1 Liter Chrysler 300, gets 13/19.

All of these get better milage than any of those imports.


And again NO ONE said that.:) What was said was when you look at the gas mileage of regular everyday cars in say England or Italy they as a part of overall production are much, MUCH more produced, advertised and sold than less fuel efficient cars.

Have you actually been to England or Italy? I have. I've been in their cars. I know what they are really like. Those cars would never sell here. Half of them are roughly equivalent to a clown car you see at a three ring circus.

What GM has done is steadily lost market share in the US. You may be totally clueless (I'm bettin') but as I travel out of the country I see all kinds of smaller American cars being sold out of the country that aren't even offered here... hence the do sell out of the country. And American trucks are still in use in most places as well.


That is true. I was greatly disappointed that some of the Holden cars were not importable. That said, you should know that most of the reasons why they don't end up here is because of lame regulation and restrictions that are "for the public benefit", no doubt passed by democrats.
 

top gun

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Andy;78093]I have not been in a Corolla, which of the few I know who have one, all say it's a pretty cheap car. Not bad, just... cheap. I have been in both the Cooper and the Fit, and they both suck. Aveo wasn't that much better or worse.

Well then you don't know much about cars. A Toyota Corolla (wife's had 3 in fact she only buys Corrolla's & Jetta's) is a very well made, safe, dependable, fuel efficient 4 passenger car. The Mini is sold through BMW and is a nice niche car, be it too small for me personally. I haven't ridden in the Fit but have Toyota's comparison the Yaris and it's a nice vehicle as well, for a small car.

That said, I thought you were claiming domestic cars were gas hogs. That was the point I was disproving, and I did so. You are comparing other factors, which I think your claims are dubious, to try and disprove an unrelated point.

Not at all.

I'm saying that the focus of American car makers in the past was not in consideration of a future market like the foreign companies were. With their focus on great quality, economical, small and mid size family cars. Then every time gas prices spike American car companies had this deadly mix of big trucks and SUV's and very mediocre regular cars... and sales are out in the cold.

Say what you will but I know from experience until this new generation started trickling out most of the mid size and smaller US cars were not nearly as well built or long lasting or as dependable as Honda's, Toyota's and VW's. You almost had to by a truck or SUV to get a decent American vehicle. I had 3 Explorers and then a GMC Envoy in a row because of that.

I still see that hidious squarded off Malibu that was just replaced around... and how about that Pontiac Aztec UGLY! The downsized Regal, the Ford Escort the Festiva all pieces of crap. Not half the car a Corrolla or Jetta are.

Now the new Pontiac G6 and the new Malibu are good. The Cobalt was better than the Caviler and the Cruise will be better than the Cobalt. Plus they have the Volt coming out. They can do it... they just have to focus on it.


You also seem to be missing a major issue. We already established that domestic labor costs are higher than un-unionized imports. Assuming that you could be correct, that domestic autos are more cheaply built, is it possible this is due to compensating for higher labor costs? Is it possible that to off set the extra expenses in Union labor, that they have used cheaper material?

Andy it's the overall expenditures of the companies. Everyone has to give. Labor has been giving and will continue to give. And now we're also going to see executives cut and executive pay and benefits cut. Some of these execs are raping these companies even when they're down.

It's a group effort here. The legacy cost will eventually be no more as part of the contracts pensions will be replaced with a standard 401K.


Have you actually been to England or Italy? I have. I've been in their cars. I know what they are really like. Those cars would never sell here. Half of them are roughly equivalent to a clown car you see at a three ring circus.

Wife has been all over the world. Me just Mexico, Canada and various islands in the Caribbean. But I can tell you this... a lot is the mindset created by the circumstances. They love trucks in Mexico too. But when you don't have a lot of money and gas is 40 or 50 pesos ($4 or $5) per gallon most everybody drives the WV Jetta (great car wife has a brand new Wolfsburg Edition) or the Nissan Sentra (that has always been around worldwide but just recently brought back into the US) and a whole lot of scooters and small to medium size motorcycles.

This is the same in the Caribbean.

And I don't dosage cars the Mini Coopers size won't be popular or work for everybody here like they do most people in England... but we can get good 4 and 5 seat family cars (size of an Accord, Camry or Malibu) getting 30 in town and 40 on the freeway in pretty short order... and even more than that going hybrid and there's also electric.


That is true. I was greatly disappointed that some of the Holden cars were not importable. That said, you should know thatmost of the reasons why they don't end up here is because of lame regulation and restrictions that are "for the public benefit", no doubt passed by democrats.

There has to be safety and pollution standards... but I know you guys on the Right just hate that clean air and water stuff!:D
 
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Ejgertz

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Jan 19, 2009
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Can't put the chicken before the egg. We need to re-establish our credit markets to help the auto makers.Could be a bumpy ride.
 
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