Ixoye

[Dr.Who]

Ickthoose

Traditionally, the fish pictogram conjures the miracle of the loaves and fishes as well as the Greek word IXOYE, which not only means fish but serves as an acronym, in Greek, for "Jesus Christ the Son of God [Is] Savior." Christians persecuted by the Romans used to draw the Jesus fish in the dirt with a stick or a finger as a way to tip off fellow Christians that they weren't alone.

In America, the easiest place to find this ancient symbol is on the back of cars. Recently, however, it seems as if Jesus fish have become outnumbered by Darwin fish. No doubt you've seen these too. The fish symbol is "updated" with little feet coming off the bottom, and "IXOYE" or "Jesus" is replaced with either "Darwin" or "Evolve."

I find Darwin fish offensive. First, there's the smugness. The undeniable message: Those Jesus fish people are less evolved, less sophisticated than we Darwin fishers.

The hypocrisy is even more glaring. Darwin fish are often stuck next to bumper stickers promoting tolerance or admonishing random motorists that "hate is not a family value." But the whole point of the Darwin fish is intolerance; similar mockery of a cherished symbol would rightly be condemned as bigoted if aimed at blacks or women or, yes, Muslims.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/04/evolution_of_religious_bigotry.html

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Ickthoose
Traditionally, the fish pictogram conjures the miracle of the loaves and fishes as well as the Greek word IXOYE, which not only means fish but serves as an acronym, in Greek, for "Jesus Christ the Son of God [Is] Savior." Christians persecuted by the Romans used to draw the Jesus fish in the dirt with a stick or a finger as a way to tip off fellow Christians that they weren't alone.

In America, the easiest place to find this ancient symbol is on the back of cars. Recently, however, it seems as if Jesus fish have become outnumbered by Darwin fish. No doubt you've seen these too. The fish symbol is "updated" with little feet coming off the bottom, and "IXOYE" or "Jesus" is replaced with either "Darwin" or "Evolve."

I find Darwin fish offensive. First, there's the smugness. The undeniable message: Those Jesus fish people are less evolved, less sophisticated than we Darwin fishers.

The hypocrisy is even more glaring. Darwin fish are often stuck next to bumper stickers promoting tolerance or admonishing random motorists that "hate is not a family value." But the whole point of the Darwin fish is intolerance; similar mockery of a cherished symbol would rightly be condemned as bigoted if aimed at blacks or women or, yes, Muslims.

Even though it seems that we disagree on every conceivable subject, I think you write well, you're not like some of the posters here and I appreciate that.

The fact that you cherish a symbol doesn't mean that anyone else who uses that symbol in a different way is being intolerant or mocking you. There is a genuine difference of opinion about the evolution of the human specie and both sides have a legitimate reason to use the fish symbol.

By your own admission you are less evolved than the Darwin fishers because you aren't evolved at all, are you? You're created by the Hand of God, finding "smugness" and being offended by someone saying what you yourself proudly proclaim smacks of whining and self-pity--especially when you are a member of a vast majority in this country who has used its superior numbers to mock, disenfranchise, subjugate, discriminate against people who don't follow their religious tenets.

How do you feel about the "Hate is not a family value" bumpersticker? What does that say to you?

 

[Dr.Who]

Even though it seems that we disagree on every conceivable subject, I think you write well, you're not like some of the posters here and I appreciate that.

Thank you. You write well too.

The fact that you cherish a symbol doesn't mean that anyone else who uses that symbol in a different way is being intolerant or mocking you. There is a genuine difference of opinion about the evolution of the human specie and both sides have a legitimate reason to use the fish symbol.

Saying that they are using a symbol a different way and neglecting that they are being offensive would be well, neglectful.

By your own admission you are less evolved than the Darwin fishers because you aren't evolved at all, are you? You're created by the Hand of God, finding "smugness" and being offended by someone saying what you yourself proudly proclaim smacks of whining and self-pity--especially when you are a member of a vast majority in this country who has used its superior numbers to mock, disenfranchise, subjugate, discriminate against people who don't follow their religious tenets.

By my own admission? What do you think I believe about evolution? The vast majority of Christians believe in evolution. That would mean that you are generalizing about this and in my opinion about the rest of what you just said too.

How do you feel about the "Hate is not a family value" bumpersticker? What does that say to you?

You would find me to be a lot less hateful than you might imagine. And I am not that different than the majority of people who go to my church. There are people who use religions and idiologies of all sorts to spread the hate that comes from within them. I find the bumber sticker to be a valid statement that could use clarification.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Saying that they are using a symbol a different way and neglecting that they are being offensive would be well, neglectful.

Are you saying that those "fish with feet" folks are being deliberately offensive? Please note YOUR comment in the following paragraph about generalization.

By my own admission? What do you think I believe about evolution? The vast majority of Christians believe in evolution. That would mean that you are generalizing about this and in my opinion about the rest of what you just said too.

Alright, if I'm wrong and you DO believe in evolution, then why in the world are you unhappy with the fish with feet emblem. In the theory of evolution fish developed feet in the place of their fins--this is in no way disrespectful or offensive that I can see. What is your problem with it?

As an aside, when it comes to generalization I think it's a necessary evil. You have not defined your position in any depth, you almost never define terms when you first use them, with more than 3000 sects of Christians in the world how am I supposed to speak to any of them without at least some generalizations? If I'm wrong about you personally, then all you have to do is explain it to me. Despite the protestations of my brothers, I am not a minion of Satan, I'm just a person struggling to fathom the behavior of the people who surround me.

You would find me to be a lot less hateful than you might imagine. And I am not that different than the majority of people who go to my church. There are people who use religions and idiologies of all sorts to spread the hate that comes from within them. I find the bumber sticker to be a valid statement that could use clarification.

Of course you are correct, but I hear this a lot, people saying that it's only a small number of religious people who are hateful. However, since George the Monkey took office 2/3 of the States have passed Constitutional amendments enshrining religious bigotry into law by banning a small percentage of the consenting adult population from enjoying the US Constitution's guarantee of equal protection under the law. It took a lot of people to accomplish that--not just a small hateful minority.

 

[Coyote]

I've often seen the Jesus fish along side smug bumper stickers such as: "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven"

 

[Dr.Who]

I've often seen the Jesus fish along side smug bumper stickers such as: "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven"

I think that seeing that as smug might be a matter of perspective. The first part is an admission of not being perfect. Probably a counter to those who say that we think we are perfect. We most certainly are not. I have never met a Christian who thought so. In the second part it says forgiven. To be forgiven one would need an understanding that one is a sinner and is helpless to to anything about it except through God's grace. Also not a smug statement. I really don't see admissions of imperfection, sinfulness, and helplessness to be claiming superiority in any way. In Christianity forgiveness comes not as a result of anything we have done to merit it. We can't be proud or boast in forgiveness in any way.

 

[vyo476]

How do you feel about the "Hate is not a family value" bumpersticker? What does that say to you?

It's not anywhere near as amusing as the one that says, "Dislexic Devil Worshippers Sell Their Souls To Santa"?

Personally, I think bumper stickers are idiotic unless they're meant to be funny. If you think about it, you're putting a miniturized poster on the ass-end of your car for the person behind you to read while stuck in traffic. Make them serious, all you're doing is setting up the potential for pissing off whoever's behind you a little more, leading to road rage and other undesirable things. Make them funny, and maybe you just brightened some guy's day for about five seconds while he's stuck behind you on the corner of Fifth and Lincoln Streets.

Social/political messages belong on the road about as much as blindfolds.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

It's not anywhere near as amusing as the one that says, "Dislexic Devil Worshippers Sell Their Souls To Santa"?

Personally, I think bumper stickers are idiotic unless they're meant to be funny. If you think about it, you're putting a miniturized poster on the ass-end of your car for the person behind you to read while stuck in traffic. Make them serious, all you're doing is setting up the potential for pissing off whoever's behind you a little more, leading to road rage and other undesirable things. Make them funny, and maybe you just brightened some guy's day for about five seconds while he's stuck behind you on the corner of Fifth and Lincoln Streets.

Social/political messages belong on the road about as much as blindfolds.

Loved the bumpersticker, hadn't heard that one. Another of that type is the UNTIED DYSLEXIC CHURCH OF DOG

 

[vyo476]

I used to have one that said, "Keep Honking, I'm Reloading," but that went when I sold my Explorer.

 

[Bunz]

Hi Folks,
Excellent posts so far by both sides.

Just out of curiousity, has any of the arguments provided on this board or any other actually been swayed by the arguments of the other side?

I ask this only as a curiousity measure.

 

[Bunz]

I used to have one that said, "Keep Honking, I'm Reloading," but that went when I sold my Explorer.

I could just imagine Vyo standing next to it giving some obscene gesture.

I might donate money to this site if you did that VYO and posted it.

 

[Dr.Who]

Hi Folks,
Excellent posts so far by both sides.

Just out of curiousity, has any of the arguments provided on this board or any other actually been swayed by the arguments of the other side?

I ask this only as a curiousity measure.

I am conservative and have moved more in that direction, but there are definite pockets of thought where I have turned around. I have seen others make turn arounds too. What is more common is that when people adapt they don't like to admit it and they just get quiet only to return later advocating a new view.

 

[Pandora]

The darwin fish do not bother me but there is one duel one with a bigger darwin fish eating a smaller fish with a cross. this one I find very rude and disrespectful. But its on the car of someone who would probably send out a christmas card that said celebrate choice this season.

I dont like seeing stuff like that in one way because I know it would be offending to many, but on the other hand I am glad to live in a country with freedom of expression.

So, what I would like is a bumber sticker that is big and huge and you can change it Digitally to say what ever you want. When the car in front of you has foul bumber stickers you can change yours and hurry and get in front of them so they can read your insult to them. This would make me happy

 

[9sublime]

I think you've got a good business plan there.

 

[PLC1]

I used to have just such a fish on the back of my car. I took it off because I was tired of being asked if I was an atheist.

No, I'm not an athiest, nor am I a denier of science and the theory of evolution. I thought the little fish was clever and funny.

The best way to avoid the mental gymnastics and doublethink required to deny evolutionary theory is not to remain ignorant of it, but to understand that the most likely scenario is that evolution is the tool that god used to create life on this pretty little blue and green planet we inhabit.

As for the "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven" slogan, that is expressing the idea that anyone who isn't a Christian had better join the flock, or have to pay a terrible price for his/her own sins. The idea that one must believe a certain way in order to avoid Hell is a lazy way to avoid rational thought and gives a compelling reason to believe what we want to believe, regardless of fact, logic, and observation.