Medvedev wants to meet Obama

[The Scotsman]

Well China has the ability, they have already done it.

........ and luke skywalker flew the millenium falcon whilst fantasising over Princess leia...its true it was on TV the other day!!!

Come on Rob, the Chinese can't even make baby food without poisoning half the population. The Chinese military is a gazillion illiterate peasant farmers stuffed into cheap cotton uniforms that don't fit with boots that fall to bits before they make it from one end of a parade ground to the other. I think they are not the adversary that they think they are, neither are the Russians for that matter.

 

[BigRob]

....what is the point of a missile shield if the Russians turn off the gas? Also, what good was a missile shield in Georgia? These are just a couple of thoughts that occurr to me based on the billions that are about to be invested on a totally pointless piece of garbage.

It does our credibility a world of good, further Russia cannot afford to turn off the gas at this point. And really, so what if they do? It will simply push Europe further away from natural gas, or get the EU to collectively bargain for it, which makes you better off in the long term anyway.

Of all the avenues of weapons technology that are being researched at the moment one would expect a slightly more imaginative response to an outdated threat. The ballistic missile pretty much reached its peak in the seventies in terms of the amount of land you could reduce to dust and ashes and the greatest challenge was to reduce the accuracy to within a few yards of the aim point...anyway its all a game I think the US is really developing other bits and bobs a tad more sophisticated than ABMs and missile sheilds.

You would be surprised.

What good does some great weapon system do you if you are unable to deter a nuclear attack? Build the most best rifle in the world, or the best satellites, and all they will get you is a nice picture of the missile as it comes in. We are somehow deluded into this post-Cold War logic that no one would ever use nuclear weapons. Other countries openly state they reserve first strike capabilities, and a big reason why the NPT worked so well was because we stated a nuclear attack on any member was a nuclear attack on the US. If the world sees that the US will simply bail on its allies in a time of crisis they will either 1) look elsewhere for a deterrent (aka Russia and China), 2) obtain their own weapons, or 3) simply not trust the United States to be a very good ally.

Oh yeah did you guys know that you've just upgraded one of our radar sites in the UK? USD1 billion contract from Boeing and Raytheon to shine up and clean the rust on Fylingsdale ...ta very much ... we don't do much with it but its nice and clean now it can see from Canada to the Urals and down as far as Central Africa...begs the questions why you want to plant another one in Poland....

First of all, the radar site is going into the Chech Republic. And the question is answered as to why we want to put missiles into Poland because we have to maintain our credibility with our allies in Eastern Europe. After bailing on Georgia in the face of an expanding Russia, our allies in Eastern Europe want a presence on the ground that we will not be so quick to wash of hand of.

 

[BigRob]

........ and luke skywalker flew the millenium falcon whilst fantasising over Princess leia...its true it was on TV the other day!!!

They did it over a year ago...January 11, 2007.

It was well documented, and it is a huge deal for the military.

Come on Rob, the Chinese can't even make baby food without poisoning half the population. The Chinese military is a gazillion illiterate peasant farmers stuffed into cheap cotton uniforms that don't fit with boots that fall to bits before they make it from one end of a parade ground to the other. I think they are not the adversary that they think they are, neither are the Russians for that matter.

The Chinese military is not the best no. They are however rapidly expanding. They are rapidly going after a Navy and well as developing missile designs and perfecting their cyber attacks. They are not about to invade California, but do not think for a moment they cannot undermine our interests in the region.

You do not think Japan is terrified of a Chinese Navy? A Chinese Navy that is able to dominate parts of Asia will most likely push Japan to go nuclear.

 

[Andy]

if by that you mean failed almost 100% of the time in Iraq the first time yes. It realy was a failed system though improvements have made it workable now. funny how the media showed a near 100% kill ratio for it in the first gulf war then it turned out it was more like almost 0

Well it depends on how you define success. It was both a failure and a success at the same time, just depending on how you defined the objectives.

First, the Patriot missile was designed to shoot down aircraft, not missiles. Thus, it's mode of operation was to get near the target, and explode, using fragmentation or shrapnel to destroy the target. Great for aircraft.

But missiles are different. When the Patriot blew up near the scud missile, the missile itself might be blown apart, but the warhead, the actual explosive payload, many times still fell to the earth and exploded.

From the US military stand point, the target missile was 'hit'. If the goal was to knock the warhead off course, preventing it from hitting it's intended military target, then the Patriot was a success.

From the Israeli stand point, where the warhead still hit the ground and blew up, destroying peoples homes and harming civilians, it was considered a failure.

Both perspectives are correct. Both conclusions are accurate. The Patriot was both a success and a failure depending on which goal, and which view you choose.

However, as it relates to Chemical, Biological, or Nuclear warhead missiles, the Patriot is simply not designed for this, and will not be effective. A missile to missile intercept system must be designed to destroy the warhead. Allowing a nuclear warhead to still fall to earth undamaged, will of course be useless.

This is why the missile defense shield project is so vital.

 

[Andy]

Well if I found a genie bottle somewhere, one of my three wishes will be for nuclear weapons to go away. I hope nukes are never used in anger again.
But as more countries do become nuclear, it increases the MADD factor. Iran, Pakistan, NKorea and anyone else who might have them against America's best interest is made very aware that if they use one, we will respond accordingly and thier own country will cease to exist. The knowledge that using offensive nuclear weapons against an American ally result in the utter destruction of everything in thier own country is one hell of a good reason not to.

Well that's the whole reason why it's so important that we keep our credibility and never lead people to believe we wouldn't use nukes. Remember back in 91, we inadvertently indicated to the Iraqi diplomat that we would not back our ally in Kuwait, and suddenly a massive army started marching across our ally.

When we back down in front of Russia, when we constantly talk about how we'll never use nuclear weapons, we are giving tiny dictator governments allied with opposing states, the feeling they can get away with this stuff.

 

[The Scotsman]

It was well documented, and it is a huge deal for the military.

...I'm not disputing that they managed it Rob, its just that they don't have a operational system or the budget to implement one. Don't forget that the old communist style is just simple grandstanding. Parades in red square when all their hardware was shown off..... the fact that most of it didn't work was not an issue! Same with the chinese....look at the Olympic Stadium its' a masterpiece of overindulgent cant.

You do not think Japan is terrified of a Chinese Navy? A Chinese Navy that is able to dominate parts of Asia will most likely push Japan to go nuclear.

....if the chinese navy threatened Japan it would turn into one of the worlds largest open water swimming contests! So no I don't think the Japanese or for that matter the Tiawanese are phased by their industrious chinese neighbours.

 

[The Scotsman]

What good does some great weapon system do you if you are unable to deter a nuclear attack? Build the most best rifle in the world, or the best satellites, and all they will get you is a nice picture of the missile as it comes in. We are somehow deluded into this post-Cold War logic that no one would ever use nuclear weapons. Other countries openly state they reserve first strike capabilities, and a big reason why the NPT worked so well was because we stated a nuclear attack on any member was a nuclear attack on the US. If the world sees that the US will simply bail on its allies in a time of crisis they will either 1) look elsewhere for a deterrent (aka Russia and China), 2) obtain their own weapons, or 3) simply not trust the United States to be a very good ally.

Rob, I think you are getting back to this sort of bi-polar cold war stalement way of thinking! Certainly I agree that the pestige of possessing nuclear weapons for some countries is a goal in itself but you need to have the infrastructure to maintain them and operate them and that costs time and money look what the cold war did to Russia ... it bankrupted them!

Nuclear missiles are only used after certain levels of threat and rhetoric have been exceeded. Whether you are Korea or Iran you do not just suddenly wake up one morning and decide to commit national suicide and launch a nuclear strike on Isreal or South Korea for example. On the other hand next generation ballistic missiles and superdooper whizzbang missile shields are totally and utterly useless when the real threat of the next 25 years or so is pondered......fanatical terrorism.

As for the US abandoning its allies, Rob I feel that its the other way round! The European community is in the initial stages of founding a European Command Structure in order to roll out a strengthened European Military force as a sign that NATO is no longer functioning as it says on the box. The political rhetoric justifiying this position is the consequences of a rather militarist US foreign policy towards certain areas of the world. Whilst I am against this development it shows that the US and its over powering use of military threat is not what its NATO allies wants. This will no doubt incurr the indignent bluster of many and the usual inane comments of like "well hell, we don't need no liberal European pussies help anyway!", but the truth of the matter is you do as you cannot exist in a self-imposed vacuum. We discussed this matter on another thread perhaps its another example of the law of unintended consequences? I would just say that the hawkishness of Bush and his advisers (Powell excepted) has done the US no favours...........IMHO!

First of all, the radar site is going into the Chech Republic. And the question is answered as to why we want to put missiles into Poland because we have to maintain our credibility with our allies in Eastern Europe. After bailing on Georgia in the face of an expanding Russia, our allies in Eastern Europe want a presence on the ground that we will not be so quick to wash of hand of.

....you can put any amount of radars where ever you want BUT the European end of integrate US defence system for ballistic missile launch detection and tracking is based at Fylingsdale in Yorkshire.

In the late 1990s the United States decided to pursue a National Missile Defense plan fully, and RAF Fylingdales attracted further publicity. To improve tracking capabilities (for launches from Africa and the Middle East) the United States wanted the use of Fylingdales as part of its NMD network. After receiving a formal request from the US, the British Government agreed to its use as an NMD tracking facility in 2003. This decision has led to renewed demonstrations by CND and other anti-nuclear and anti-war protestors. It has also complicated Britain's fragile relationship with certain European Union states such as France. The decision was criticised because the proposed NMD system was solely for US benefit.

A £449m upgrade for RAF Fylingdales to become an NMD tracking facility is now underway by Boeing, with Raytheon as the major subcontractor. It will replace many internal systems - computers, displays, etc. - to improve resolution and tracking accuracy. No external changes are being made in direct relation to these upgrades and no power increases will occur.

This is before the upgrade programme!

 

[BigRob]

...I'm not disputing that they managed it Rob, its just that they don't have a operational system or the budget to implement one. Don't forget that the old communist style is just simple grandstanding. Parades in red square when all their hardware was shown off..... the fact that most of it didn't work was not an issue! Same with the chinese....look at the Olympic Stadium its' a masterpiece of overindulgent cant.

The mere fact that they did it was a clear message to the United States. That much should be obvious. While they are not yet capable of shooting down hundreds of satellites all at once, they are well on their way. China is pouring money into the Navy and missile technology, we would at least do well to pay some attention to it.

....if the chinese navy threatened Japan it would turn into one of the worlds largest open water swimming contests! So no I don't think the Japanese or for that matter the Tiawanese are phased by their industrious chinese neighbours.

To hear the Taiwanese and the Japanese say it they are terrified of a expanding China. The Chinese navy (as of right now) is not good. That much I can agree with. That said they are making a lot of strides in submarines and other naval vessels that can cause major problems in the Straits of Malacca for Japan because that is where desperately needed oil comes through.

 

[BigRob]

Rob, I think you are getting back to this sort of bi-polar cold war stalement way of thinking! Certainly I agree that the pestige of possessing nuclear weapons for some countries is a goal in itself but you need to have the infrastructure to maintain them and operate them and that costs time and money look what the cold war did to Russia ... it bankrupted them!

And now we are dealing with a bankrupt Russia wanting to reassert itself that is sitting on 1000+ nuclear weapons. It does not take all that much to maintain a nuclear weapon. Pakistan maintains their weapons and they are on the verge of total collapse. North Korea tested a bomb, they are certainly not a good economy.

Nuclear missiles are only used after certain levels of threat and rhetoric have been exceeded. Whether you are Korea or Iran you do not just suddenly wake up one morning and decide to commit national suicide and launch a nuclear strike on Isreal or South Korea for example.

Assuming you are a rational actor and are not backed into a corner. What is the concern is that command control is given to commanders in the field (as is often the case) and they launch without authorization.

Tactical nuclear weapons also become a big factor in this debate, as Israel is already running training missions with tactical nuclear weapons for a strike on Iran.

On the other hand next generation ballistic missiles and superdooper whizzbang missile shields are totally and utterly useless when the real threat of the next 25 years or so is pondered......fanatical terrorism.

I personally dispute the notion that fanatical terrorism is the real threat. Yes terrorism is bad, and yes 9/11 was a travesty, but I think given the structure of the world, we will start to see more state vs. state type interactions, with elements of terrorism no doubt.

As for the US abandoning its allies, Rob I feel that its the other way round! The European community is in the initial stages of founding a European Command Structure in order to roll out a strengthened European Military force as a sign that NATO is no longer functioning as it says on the box.

Think about why this is the case.

The political rhetoric justifiying this position is the consequences of a rather militarist US foreign policy towards certain areas of the world. Whilst I am against this development it shows that the US and its over powering use of military threat is not what its NATO allies wants. This will no doubt incurr the indignent bluster of many and the usual inane comments of like "well hell, we don't need no liberal European pussies help anyway!", but the truth of the matter is you do as you cannot exist in a self-imposed vacuum. We discussed this matter on another thread perhaps its another example of the law of unintended consequences? I would just say that the hawkishness of Bush and his advisers (Powell excepted) has done the US no favours...........IMHO!

I personally disagree. I think that NATO continues to play a role, albeit a diminished one, but a role nonetheless. I have no doubt some will attack Europe for being weak on defense, but that is irrelevant in a discussion of US missile defense. In order for the United States to maintain credibility around the world we are forced to act in basically every situation. What we do in Poland is being watched very closely by Japan. If we continue to back off of security promises, Japan is not going to be very trustful that we will come to their aid in a crisis.

....you can put any amount of radars where ever you want BUT the European end of integrate US defence system for ballistic missile launch detection and tracking is based at Fylingsdale in Yorkshire.

And the missile defense strategy calls for a layered response that gives the ability to target a missile at various stages of its flight. Putting close radar to the actual interceptors is a good thing in this regard.