Mental Health Advisory Team Reveals Disturbing Facts About Soldiers In Iraq

[Napoleon]

In their Fourth Report, the Mental Health Advisory Team has revealed these disturbing findings:

1. Only 38% of marines and 47% of soldiers agreed that all non-combatants should be treated with dignity and respect

2. 17% of marines and 17% of soldiers agreed that all non-combatants should be treated as insurgents

3. Only 24% of marines and 25% of soldiers agreed that they would risk their own safety to help a non-combatant in danger.

4. 10% of marines and soldiers reported that their unit "modifies" the rules of engagement to accomplish their mission.

5. 60% of marines and 45% of soldiers said that they would not report a unit member for injuring or killing an innocent non-combatant.

6. 67% of marines and 50% of soldiers said that they would not report a unit member for stealing from a non-combatant.

7. 65% of marines and 54% of soldiers said that they would not report a unit member for violating the rules of engagement.

8. 70% of marines and 57% of soldiers said that they would not report a unit member for unnecessarily destroying private property.

9. 33% of Marines and 25% of soldiers reported that their NCOs and Officers did not make it clear that mistreating non-combatants is unacceptable.

http://www.armymedicine.army.mil/news/mhat/mhat_iv/MHAT_IV_Report_17NOV06.pdf

 

[Bunz]

I am not one, nor should I think anyone second guess someone in a firefight. The action is to fast, intense, and to much is on the line to put such a broad blanket over the situation. Also polls like this are notoriously misleading. For instance I dont know if they were told they were responding in a poll.

1. Only 38% of marines and 47% of soldiers agreed that all non-combatants should be treated with dignity and respect

This comes from having your buddies shot in the back or blown to bits as you walk by the people on the streets who are combatants only when they have a chance to shoot and scoot.

2. 17% of marines and 17% of soldiers agreed that all non-combatants should be treated as insurgents

This doesnt surprise me. You would probably get much higher numbers from past wars.

3. Only 24% of marines and 25% of soldiers agreed that they would risk their own safety to help a non-combatant in danger.

I mean really, what do you expect?

4. 10% of marines and soldiers reported that their unit "modifies" the rules of engagement to accomplish their mission.

Once again, this doesnt surprise me, I figured it would be a bit higher.

5. 60% of marines and 45% of soldiers said that they would not report a unit member for injuring or killing an innocent non-combatant.

This isnt a warm and fuzzy at all, but those things do happen.

6. 67% of marines and 50% of soldiers said that they would not report a unit member for stealing from a non-combatant.

This again is a matter of unwritten code, youll find it among team sports, police forces and military units, but also labor unions etc. It comes from unit cohesion, without it the death toll over there would be much higher.

7. 65% of marines and 54% of soldiers said that they would not report a unit member for violating the rules of engagement.

again, see the code.

8. 70% of marines and 57% of soldiers said that they would not report a unit member for unnecessarily destroying private property

.

9. 33% of Marines and 25% of soldiers reported that their NCOs and Officers did not make it clear that mistreating non-combatants is unacceptable.

So 1/3 of Marines and a quarter of the Army, I wonder how many of those officers thought thier subordinates were smart enough to know better.

Dont get me wrong on this, some of the numbers are not a sense of pride for me. But I will not second guess someone who is in a war zone. Any one of us would go to great lengths to protect ourselves and out fellow unit. If I have an M-16, and a guy steps around the corner with an RPG and points it in my direction, I am going to fire on him to save my own life, regardless of the day care facility behind him. It is a sad fact of life, and anyone who says they wouldnt take the shot has never been put in that situation, or is a liar.

 

[Lawless168]

97.3% of all statistics are made up

 

[r0beph]

I am not one, nor should I think anyone second guess someone in a firefight. The action is to fast, intense, and to much is on the line to put such a broad blanket over the situation. Also polls like this are notoriously misleading. For instance I dont know if they were told they were responding in a poll.

This comes from having your buddies shot in the back or blown to bits as you walk by the people on the streets who are combatants only when they have a chance to shoot and scoot.

This doesnt surprise me. You would probably get much higher numbers from past wars.

I mean really, what do you expect?

Once again, this doesnt surprise me, I figured it would be a bit higher.

This isnt a warm and fuzzy at all, but those things do happen.

This again is a matter of unwritten code, youll find it among team sports, police forces and military units, but also labor unions etc. It comes from unit cohesion, without it the death toll over there would be much higher.

again, see the code.
.


So 1/3 of Marines and a quarter of the Army, I wonder how many of those officers thought thier subordinates were smart enough to know better.

Dont get me wrong on this, some of the numbers are not a sense of pride for me. But I will not second guess someone who is in a war zone. Any one of us would go to great lengths to protect ourselves and out fellow unit. If I have an M-16, and a guy steps around the corner with an RPG and points it in my direction, I am going to fire on him to save my own life, regardless of the day care facility behind him. It is a sad fact of life, and anyone who says they wouldnt take the shot has never been put in that situation, or is a liar.

What about us being there to HELP the poor nation of Iraq be LIBERATED from Saddam Hussein? Why the hell do you think we're there? Oh it's ok to kill innocents? No the fark it's not you sicko. I understand your comment about the daycare. That's definitely understandable, but I think that's strawman against the reasoning of the statistic here. I think the point is that if they saw someone walking down the road unarmed and for shiz and giggles fired the .50 at them, they'd not report it. War does strange things.....Understandable. While I've never been in a war out of this country, I've been in plenty of local war zones, I've ducked behind the ambulance cowering in unarmed fear wearing a IIa vest that probably wouldn't stop the crazy guy rifling at us from an apt building while we're trying to save his latest victim. So what I DO know as these soldiers know, is fear. Working innercity EMS is likely the closest thing to that which you'll ever find here, gangland territorial wars, and that blue star on your vest is a happy target for them when you're saving their enemy. What I can say for this war in Iraq is that regardless of what people may think or care about, IRAQ is not the WAR ON TERROR, its a civil war perpetuated by terrorist elements and not the majority of iraqi people. Their only sin is being born into a country where America destabalized it. I'm not going to argue the war here. But those statistics are sick and no amount of defense will make them agreeable. Murder is not murder ONLY WHEN IN IMMINENT SELF DEFENSE! While it is debatable what self defense is, I assure you I fall on the conservative side for that one point. If someone is late for work in iraq and speeds through a check point I would not shed a tear for the victim of his own stupidity and the soldiers fearful of a VBIED. I'd not hold them accountable, that would be understandable. However, a once friend now I cannot speak to without disgust, returned from iraq, he was a sniper, he relished in his stories of shooting the father walking two kids to school. Whether true or not his earnest to return to iraq (where is currently is) disturbed me greatly and is led much credence by these statistics. I'm greatly disturbed by any defense you'd bring forth for this. We're a great power but the weak mind is showing large above the low brow.

 

[Bunz]

What about us being there to HELP the poor nation of Iraq be LIBERATED from Saddam Hussein? Why the hell do you think we're there? Oh it's ok to kill innocents? No the fark it's not you sicko. I understand your comment about the daycare. That's definitely understandable.

I think your barking up the wrong tree, I am not for our ongoing occupation of Iraq nor am I in any way a Bush apologist. I despise him as President. I dont condone any killing of innocents. I was merely pointing out the reality and not the wishful thinking of many.
I myself have never been shot at, and have seen more than my fair share of carnage as it appears you have as well. I will tell you a brief story of a much longer one, that involves me moose hunting in tall grass and nearly and quite literally crapping my pants as I came across a very large bear...I didnt shoot, and could have, but it was that very real life lesson that told me not to question the decisions of people in that situation.

 

[palerider]

I am not one, nor should I think anyone second guess someone in a firefight. The action is to fast, intense, and to much is on the line to put such a broad blanket over the situation. Also polls like this are notoriously misleading. For instance I dont know if they were told they were responding in a poll.

The situation is exacerbated by the fact that they are fighting an enemy that doesn't wear a uniform and is perfectly comfortable hiding behind women and children.

 

[r0beph]

I think your barking up the wrong tree, I am not for our ongoing occupation of Iraq nor am I in any way a Bush apologist. I despise him as President. I dont condone any killing of innocents. I was merely pointing out the reality and not the wishful thinking of many.
I myself have never been shot at, and have seen more than my fair share of carnage as it appears you have as well. I will tell you a brief story of a much longer one, that involves me moose hunting in tall grass and nearly and quite literally crapping my pants as I came across a very large bear...I didnt shoot, and could have, but it was that very real life lesson that told me not to question the decisions of people in that situation.

Excuse me for misreading. I wasn't poking keel at the bush friendly of the board. Not even at the war support crowd. But rather those who appear friendly to the idea that the statistics can exist as such without PURE OUTRAGE pouring forth. Our country, in all its immaculate morality, is just as bad as those we judge. It is not ok for the judges in our courts to stoop to the level of street thug in executing their judgments. And as a country at war with those who fight without humanity as animals, we should not cower to their level. I understand the reason for remaining in Iraq, it's a cesspool filled with terrorists, people of no country. Iraqis themselves are not themselves a threats, it's the terrorists that infiltrated the country we must now contend with, not just for us, but for the iraqi citizens. We're there not as invaders, but in defense of the defenseless, this my friends is NOT showing that.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

The situation is exacerbated by the fact that they are fighting an enemy that doesn't wear a uniform and is perfectly comfortable hiding behind women and children.

Bingo.

 

[Bunz]

Excuse me for misreading. I wasn't poking keel at the bush friendly of the board. Not even at the war support crowd. But rather those who appear friendly to the idea that the statistics can exist as such without PURE OUTRAGE pouring forth. Our country, in all its immaculate morality, is just as bad as those we judge. It is not ok for the judges in our courts to stoop to the level of street thug in executing their judgments. And as a country at war with those who fight without humanity as animals, we should not cower to their level. I understand the reason for remaining in Iraq, it's a cesspool filled with terrorists, people of no country. Iraqis themselves are not themselves a threats, it's the terrorists that infiltrated the country we must now contend with, not just for us, but for the iraqi citizens. We're there not as invaders, but in defense of the defenseless, this my friends is NOT showing that.

I am certainly not happy or proud of the statistics, but I really question the poll, as I do all polls. Your right the US is at times hypocritical, but I will point out that we dont live in an ideal world, and especially a war zone. I dont think we are talking about shooting civilians as a matter of target practice. War changes people, and the value of life on the other side becomes awfully cheap when you are in danger, that is not an American trait, that is a human trait.

 

[vyo476]

1. Only 38% of marines and 47% of soldiers agreed that all non-combatants should be treated with dignity and respect

Cause they treat all civilians here in the US with "dignity and respect." Face it - soldiers tend to look down on civilians. Why does it matter?

2. 17% of marines and 17% of soldiers agreed that all non-combatants should be treated as insurgents

Note that this doesn't necessarily mean "just shoot them all." Insurgents have been allowed to surrender - if they weren't we wouldn't have the Guantanamo Bay or Abu Ghraib scandals under our belt - so being wary of potential foes in a war zone seems...well, smart.

3. Only 24% of marines and 25% of soldiers agreed that they would risk their own safety to help a non-combatant in danger.

If you went out and asked the average, self-serving American if he'd throw himself in front of a moving vehicle to save a small child, do you really think he'd have a frame of reference with which to provide an answer? Basically, asking someone about something that is so purely instinctual in a calm, relaxed setting is nearly pointless.

4. 10% of marines and soldiers reported that their unit "modifies" the rules of engagement to accomplish their mission.

They'd have to go into more detail for me to really be angry about this. How do they "modify" the ROE?

5. 60% of marines and 45% of soldiers said that they would not report a unit member for injuring or killing an innocent non-combatant.

If you really expect a large number of soldiers to go around ratting out their comrades then you don't know a whole lot about the military lifestyle. If someone gets out of hand they're dealt with; otherwise allowing our troops to maintain the highest level of trust in each other is a wise course of action.

6. 67% of marines and 50% of soldiers said that they would not report a unit member for stealing from a non-combatant.

That which I just wrote above applies to this as well.

7. 65% of marines and 54% of soldiers said that they would not report a unit member for violating the rules of engagement.

Once again...no details.

8. 70% of marines and 57% of soldiers said that they would not report a unit member for unnecessarily destroying private property.

Once again, I highly doubt that this means that a whole Brigade musters and then runs through Baghdad shooting up the buildings. If it happens accidentally, or on purpose once and a while, no, the other troops aren't going to report it. If it gets out of hand, they'll probably deal with it themselves, or perhaps at that point go to a superior officer.

9. 33% of Marines and 25% of soldiers reported that their NCOs and Officers did not make it clear that mistreating non-combatants is unacceptable.

Soldiers are still people. I know that people misinterpret or simply don't understand what I'm saying on a fairly regular basis. And anyway, wouldn't most American soldiers today understand that hurting a non-combatant isn't acceptable? Should they have to be told that by their superiors?