Modern Liberalism =- Authoritarianism

My Pale friend,
You're entirely correct in that I don't know you, but what I do know about you is what I get from your writing. If you weren't so busy refuting everything I write and verbally abusing me, you might answer my questions and we'd all learn more about each other.

I can't imagine any reason why you would hate me so much that you'd take away my marriage of many years--except out of fear. An appeal to tradition is hardly adequate to justify trashing several people's lives--people doing no harm to anyone, least of all you.

With all your high-falutin talk of how tolerant you are and interested in people's freedom "from", how is it that you need to attack me? All the stuff I wrote about fear is accurate for people who behave as you have been: attacking strangers for no discernable reason and, in fact, attacking in opposition to positions already taken by you previously.

Getting married makes people happy, that's reason enough to let people do it, in my opinion, and so far you haven't given any rational reason why all people shouldn't be allowed to marry.
 
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Another lie by the Pale one. When you said that my legal marriage should be taken away from me you made this personal.

I didn't attack you. I said that what you have is not a marriage. I didn't say that it was meaningless or without value, but it simply can not be a marriage. Marriage is what it is and if you have a marriage license, then you have it through decption.

Or does your marriage license actually say that it is an arrangement between two women?
 
Do you take drugs to make this stuff up or is it just a gift of BS? IF ALL THE LAWS PERSECUTING US GET REPEALED AND WE HAVE EQUALITY BEFORE THE LAW, then I will be paranoid if I post this way, until then you are hoist on your own petard by the unjust laws that you have passed.

You are equal before the law. Not being allowed to marry does not make you unequal, it only means that you do not meet the qualifications for marriage. You refuse to simply see that marriage is what it is and cry that you are being discriminated against. You and I are perfectly equal. You can not marry a woman, and I can not marry a man. Equality.
 
Not really. Some, perhaps - if you insist on using a simple right/left axis. Some are a mix of left and rightwing (but you insist on defining them as left) Some are rightwing (and you define those as left simply because they are authoritarian). If you use commonly accepted definitions (which you like to use for "classical liberal" but not for anything else) - you can see some are clearly rightwing such as fascism.

Which part of fascism do you believe was right wing?

The ends justify the means. You think that that is something that liberals alone supposedly embrace? I don't think so. As a liberal I certainly don't feel that.

You don't have the power to impose means in order to reach an end. You might feel differently if you suddenly had the power to impose your want's on society.

No. The reason they were authoritarian was because one person or a group of persons wanted power over everyone else - it is as simple as that. Equality - beyond verbage, had nothing to do with it. Equality did not exist in most of those regimes. Liberalism exists within a democracy and supports a democracy because a democracy is the only guarantor of both equality and freedom.

And modern liberlaism wants power over everyone else so that the agenda of modern liberlism may be carried out. The goal of modern liberalism, however, isn't freedom, it is equality. Freedom and imposed equality are mutually exclusive.

And of course equality existed in the authoritarian states. Everyone was equally miserable; except, of course, the elites.

The constitution describes the only form of equality that can exist with freedom. It is not imposed beyond protecting certain rights. Modern liberalism has an entirely different sort of equality in mind. Imposed equality, mandated equal respect and punishment for those who don't conform.

Not at all - this assertion is contradicted by everyday reality. We've existed a long time with Church authority seperated from secular authority. We and much of the west have thrived under a very secular system of law and that includes freedom of religion and freedom of people to practice the religion of their choice. Seperation of church and state is nothing more sinister then render unto Ceaser that which is Ceasers. When it does not work you get systems like Saudi Arabia or Iran in the modern world (both authoritarian and religious) and a host of other examples in history.

You seem to be confusing theocracies with the influence of religion in public affairs.

Fascism started out as socialism with all the associated frills and promises - on paper. But as soon as he consolodated his power Mussolini rejected socialism, rejected the idea of equality in favor of inherent inequality and rejected the leftwing ideals of workers rights, workers ownership and unions and pretty much turned back on every promise he had made. He created a rightwing authoritarian ideology.

Name a leftist authoritarian state that didn't do the same thing. Are you trying to say that mao's china and the soviet union were right wing as well? Musollini did nothing that all the other leftist regimes haven't done. Modern liberalism is inherently authoritarian. For a smart person, you sure do resist seeing certain truths.

Hitler and Mussolini were largely rightwing authoritarian ideologies - if you go by any commonly excepted definitions. The fact that they had certain attributes of leftwing ideologies does not make them "leftwing" (note: Stalin's USSR had certain charecteristics that were considered "rightwing" - does that make Stalin a rightwing dictator?).

Again, which part of fascism, or socialism do you believe was right wing? Left wing doesn't become right wing just because you don't like the means they used to get to an end.

See - there again you are defining "conservative" very narrowly (as "classical liberal") but you are making a broad stroke with modern liberalism.

Modern liberalism is socialism or socialism lite if it is sufficeintly opposed at the level of power. How much more specific do I need to get. Pinochet was not a classical liberal. What ideology did he promote that suggested any form of classical liberalism.

I would disagree. I think that is more rightwing talking points then reality.

I am sure that you woud dissagree, but the facts are what they are.

Do you want to make lists? You list the socialist intrusions and demands on our lives that have come from congress and I will list the socialist intrusions and demands that have come from the courts.

If you are talking "activist judges" - then you'll find that historically, the conservatives have been just as guilty as the liberals of "by-passing" the democratic process.

"Just as" want to make some lists there as well?

Aside from that though - I do not think that by and large the democratic process has been by-passed. We are a long long ways from a dicatorship by any stretch of the imagination.

Aside from that!! Modern liberalism depends on the courts to push its agenda because most of it is blatantly unconstitutional and would not make it through the legislative process. Far more of the modern liberal agenda has been realized throught the courts than through the lawmakers.

Much of western europe is quite stable, as is the U.S., Canada, Australia and a host of other countries with functioning democracies.

Well, I will grant you that they say that they are stable and the press agrees with them.
 
Which part of fascism do you believe was right wing?

First off, much of the idea that fascism is suddenly “leftwing” comes from a popular book by Goldberg “Liberal Fascism” – a book of questionable scholarship, that even respected conservative scholars are critical of: http://www.amconmag.com/2008/2008_01_28/review.html

…but a popular book none-the-less because it entertains and fuels blather of the same sort of people that think Coulter is a real scholar. It is nothing less then selective historic revisionism – which is hilarious because that is what the right likes to accuse the left of.

The following characteristics of Mussolini’s fascist state many of which are identified with rightwing ideologies (but not necessarily mean exclusive to):

  • corporatism of industry
  • repeal of suffrage
  • insertion of religion in education/state
  • xenophobia
  • anti-liberalism and individualism
  • anti-communism
  • rampant militarism
  • compulsory patriotism
  • imposition of traditional values over social liberalism
  • Imposition state control over all aspects of life (keeping in mind liberals prefer state control over the market and economy while conservatives prefer it over the social sphere ie - people’s personal lives)...

Much of what Mussolini outlined in his initial manifesto represented a common populist/socialist platform which he promptly reneged on once he came into power. In other words – fascism in action took on a distinctly rightwing bent. The issue concerning women's right to vote was brought up right after the constitution of the unified Italian State. Suffrage ceased with the uprising of fascism and Mussolini's rejection of socialism. Essentially, suffrage, and a number of other ideals written out in the manifesto, were little more then a propaganda pieces to win popular support and control of the government. Once control was achieved - most were rejected. The words of the manifesto bear little resemblance to what is meant by modern political theorists when they describe the doctrines of fascism. In other words - once Mussolini gained power, he governed in a very different manner than that espoused in his manifesto and it is that which defines fascism today.

One primary component in your definition of modern liberal is the idea of equality over freedom. Yet - the idea of equality did not exist under fascism - in fact fascism specifically endorsed inherent inequalities as natural and right.

Like Italy, fascist Germany, under Hitler had no functioning equivalent to the “Bill of Rights” – something that all liberals strongly support in one form or another (such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights). There was no free-press, no right to a local militia, no unhindered elections, no right to assemble and absolutely no right to strike (labor unions). In addition, like Mussolini’s corporatist Italy, fascist Germany also had an elite inner circle reaping the benefits of the many (the workers) – there was no worker ownership of industry but rather a combination of state rules and private aristocracy. The rights of workers and unions and collective common ownership of means of production has always been a trademark of extreme left ideologies. It is clearly missing here. Fascism may promise that “everybody has a job” but that promise comes without a minimum wage, without overtime, without environmental standards - all of which- liberals (populists) support and the far-right-conservatives reject. State control/ownership does not always mean “leftwing”.

Now, lets look at Mussolini and the Catholic Church. When it comes to church relations – yes, Mussolini had to foster good relations with the Roman Catholic Church despite his personal antagonism to religion because the Roman Catholic Church was the most powerful social institution in Italy. The idea that the Pope would have swung on a rope had we not had a war is laughable. Mussolini could only have stayed in power with the support of the church and he knew that and he hated it. In return the church was able to regain a great deal of the power, territories and political influence it had lost in prior years. While Mussolini governed the political side of Italy, the Roman Catholic Church governed the spiritual and social side.

The rightwing loves to bring up “universal suffrage” as proof that fascism is “leftwing”. Despite the initial proclamation of universal suffrage for women (rapidly repealed when Mussolini's fascist state was realized) both the political elite and the national culture of both fascist Italy and fascist Germany were male-dominated inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, which lent the regimes cover for their abuses.

Mussolini pushed the idea that women should stay at home and look after the family while their husbands worked - because that was pushed by the Roman Catholic Church. Mussolini also echoed the Church in his disapproval at the use of contraception and in wanting divorce banned in fascist Italy.

Of course there were clashes between Mussolini and the Church but they were relatively minor and quickly patched up. One was over whom should control education: the state (so they could grow up to be good little fascists) or church so (they could grow up and become good little Catholics). They worked out a compromise that churned out good little Catholic Fascists. This compromised is reflected in the Lateran Treaties. In addition, the Lateran Treaties made the Roman Catholic faith the state religion and religion had to be taught in both primary and secondary schools. The Church was also given full control of marriage. And you still think the Pope would have swung on a rope?

So, as you can see - what Mussolini personally believed concerning religion (he did not like it) had little bearing on what fascism became in practice and in Mussolini’s social policies once he came into power.
 
You don't have the power to impose means in order to reach an end. You might feel differently if you suddenly had the power to impose your want's on society.

Pale, I think you are to keen to view people in light of stereotypes over realities- you know, like the stereotype that all conservatives are heartless religious fundies who want criminalize sodomy, put women back in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant and subsitute religion for science.

I do not believe that the means justify the end. Believing in that means sharing a mindset with such people as Eric Rudolph who believes that murdering innocent people is justified in order to stop abortion or terrorists who believe that murdering innocent people in order to achieve their political ends is justified. I believe in the rule of law and having power would not change my view that democracy is the way of making change. I am not unique among liberals in that.

And modern liberlaism wants power over everyone else so that the agenda of modern liberlism may be carried out. The goal of modern liberalism, however, isn't freedom, it is equality. Freedom and imposed equality are mutually exclusive.

You really sound like you are echoing political talking points here. You are right - freedom and imposed equality can be mutually exclusive. Is that a bad thing?

Person A wants the freedom to ban black people from using public facilities except specially designated places and doors.

You think that is a good thing? Or do you view this as the first step of a slippery slope towards authoritarianism? (Slippery Slope Fallacy)

The constitution describes the only form of equality that can exist with freedom. It is not imposed beyond protecting certain rights. Modern liberalism has an entirely different sort of equality in mind. Imposed equality, mandated equal respect and punishment for those who don't conform.

The constitution wasn't enough to prevent all kinds of "seperate but equal" policies and the criminalization and marginalization of certain groups of people under the guise of "state's rights". Imposed equality - in view of most liberals (not in view of rightwing anti-liberal talking points) is this: everyone deserves an equal chance to succeed on a level playing field. You like to take the most extreme views of liberals and try to portray that as the common one. Not all liberals are extreme. Just like not all conservatives are extremists.

You seem to be confusing theocracies with the influence of religion in public affairs.

Not at all. I'm simply viewing the logical extreme religion in public affairs as witnessed many times over, in history. You say that the natural extension of liberalism is authoritarianism. I say the natural extension of religion in our system of law (public affairs) is authoritarianism. There is nothing in the Abrahamic faiths that allows for democracy - every one of them, at their logical extreme (fundamentalism) is authoritarian and rigid.

Do you want to make lists?

You want a list? You don't believe that conservatives can be just as rigorous and unethical in desire to use the courts to impose an agenda as you view liberals?

I will give you a list on a separate post.

Well, I will grant you that they say that they are stable and the press agrees with them.

This is incredibly weak - where is the logic here? It's not just the press. It's not that they "say" they are. It's reflected in the standards of living and satisfaction of the people living there - a standard of living higher then ours I might add, in some of those countries. Peace and prosperity promote stability.
 
Some examples of conservative judicial activism:

In 1886, a conservative dominated Court decided that a corporation was the same as a person;
therefore the Fourteenth Amendment protected business conglomerates from regulation by the states. The constitution made no mention of corporate personhood...the court took it upon itself to "rewrite" the constitution. Thus corporations have legal standing as "persons" thanks to conservative judicial activism.

In addition, 1920, conservative (pro-business) federal courts had struck down roughly three hundred labor laws passed by state legislatures to ease inhumane working conditions and between 1880 and 1931 those same courts issued more than 1,800 injunctions to suppress labor strikes. Where was "conservative restraint" and a respect for state's rights?

Even better, during that same period, when Congress outlawed child labor and passed other social reform legislation, conservative judges declared such laws to be violations of the Tenth Amendment: the one that states that powers not delegated to the federal government are reserved to the states or the people. YET, when states passed social-welfare legislation, the Court's right-wing judicial activists claimed such laws violated substantive due process under the Fourteenth Amendment. Leaving the state legislatures unable to act.

For more than 50 years, the courts used the Tenth Amendment to stop federal reforms initiated under the Fourteenth Amendment, and simultaneously used the Fourteenth to stymie state reforms initiated under the Tenth. Sounds activist to me.

Now we here all about liberal judicial activism in relation to integration but what about the act of conservative judicial activism that legalized segregation in the first place? A conservative Supreme Court produced Plessy v. Ferguson (1896), yet another creative reading of the Fourteenth Amendment's equal protection clause. Plessy created the "separate but equal" doctrine, and claimed that the forced separation of races did not impute inferiority as long as facilities were equal (which, in reality, they rarely were). For some seventy years afterwards this judicial invention buttressed racial segregation.

The concept of "executive privilege". Executive privilege has been used by the White House to withhold information on undeclared wars, illegal campaign funds, Supreme Court nominations, burglaries (Watergate), insider trading (by Clinton, Bush and Cheney), and White House collusion with corporate lobbyists. But where in the Constitution is the concept of executive privilege (aka unaccountable executive secrecy)? Ans: nowhere. Yet right-wing activists on the Supreme Court declare executive privilege a "presumptive privilege" for withholding information that belongs to the president. How does this jive with strict constitutional constructionalism?

Or how about attempts at campaign finance reform? In Buckley v. Valeo, the Court's rightwing judicial activists decided that states cannot prohibit corporations from spending unlimited amounts on public referenda or other elections because such campaign expenditures constitute a form of "speech" and the Constitution guarantees freedom of speech to such "persons" as "corporations". In a dissenting opinion, the liberal Justice Stevens noted, "Money is property; it is not speech." But his conservative colleagues chose the more creative activist interpretation. Thus poor and rich can both freely compete, one in a whisper, the other with a bullhorn and money is now "speech".

And lets not forget the most astounding example of Right-wing judicial activism: George W. Bush v. Al Gore. In a 5-to-4 decision, the conservative justices overruled the Florida Supreme Court's order for a recount in the 2000 presidential election. The justices argued that since different Florida counties might use different modes of tabulating ballots, a hand recount would violate the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Talk about a creative interpretation.

A couple more...

Recently conservative justices have held that the Fourteenth Amendment's equal protection clause could not be used to stop violence against women or provide for a more equitable distribution of money between poor and rich school districts. Yet, in Bush v. Gore they ruled that that same equal protection clause could be used to stop a perfectly legal ballot recount. Then they explicitly declared that Bush could not be considered a precedent for any other equal protection issues. In other words, the Fourteenth Amendment applied only when the conservative judicial activists wanted it to.

It is also interesting to note that the dissenting opinions were notable for their unusually harsh criticism of the majority.

Justice Stevens' dissent concluded (from Wikipedia):

What must underlie petitioners' entire federal assault on the Florida election procedures is an unstated lack of confidence in the impartiality and capacity of the state judges who would make the critical decisions if the vote count were to proceed. Otherwise, their position is wholly without merit. The endorsement of that position by the majority of this Court can only lend credence to the most cynical appraisal of the work of judges throughout the land. It is confidence in the men and women who administer the judicial system that is the true backbone of the rule of law. Time will one day heal the wound to that confidence that will be inflicted by today's decision. One thing, however, is certain. Although we may never know with complete certainty the identity of the winner of this year's Presidential election, the identity of the loser is perfectly clear. It is the Nation's confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian of the rule of law.

I respectfully dissent.
 
You are equal before the law. Not being allowed to marry does not make you unequal, it only means that you do not meet the qualifications for marriage. You refuse to simply see that marriage is what it is and cry that you are being discriminated against. You and I are perfectly equal. You can not marry a woman, and I can not marry a man. Equality.

You can marry the consenting adult partner of your choice.

Mare can not.

You don't have to call it marriage - call it something else. Other societies thoughout history have identified, respected and legitamized same sex unions under different names. The contractual union of two or more human beings has gone under many different names.

Currently - our society grants a special set of rights to heterosexual couples that it refuses to grant to homosexual couples in any form.

Why?

It can't be solely familial relations as family is not restricted to heterosexuals any more.

Nor can it be about children as many couples choose not to have children or can not have children yet still gain the same rights.

So it is about equality, despite the semantical games being played.
 
I didn't attack you. I said that what you have is not a marriage. I didn't say that it was meaningless or without value, but it simply can not be a marriage. Marriage is what it is and if you have a marriage license, then you have it through decption.

Or does your marriage license actually say that it is an arrangement between two women?

I've never seen a marriage license that said what genders the people were. In fact when you go to get a marriage license they don't do a strip search to make sure that your marriage only has one vagina and one penis. Our marriage license has our names not our genders. There was no deception involved, I was legally male when we got married, the fact that as time went by I discovered that I needed to change my gender presentation to save my life was a discovery by me due to the fact that the insane culture in which I live tries to deny that transsexuals even exist, therefore I had no access to the proper medical care I desperately needed while growing up. The deception is on the part of the culture not me.

You did attack me when you said that if you had the power you would take our marriage away from us. But what I don't understand is WHY. What possible difference does it make? Just the definition of the word is adequate justification to make several million people 2nd class citizens? To tear apart families who have or are raising children? Destroy loving relationships of many years or decades standing?

Why I wonder so much about you is that you are f88king HYSTERICAL about the use of one word when words in our language change meaning all the time. Why? You have yet to give a single reason for your stance. Why is your definition more important than the happiness of millions of other people? This is one of the things that makes you look like just another insane Bible-beater--there's no reason except god wants it like this, which is really no reason at all. Why, Pale, why?
 
Making most anything that is presently against the law legal would make the people who want to do it happy. Making people happy is no valid reason to grant special rights.
Easy to say. Prove it.
Prove it.

This post is another example of the hysteria you evince. Comparing any other law that bars illegal behavior to broadening the marriage laws is irrational. Just like asking me to prove a negative. As far as the children are concerned, well, there are a lot of them being raised in gay families without the same legal protections you enjoy, figure it out, Pale, would your family be less safe if all your legal marriage rights and privileges were taken away.

Just like your attitude towards the definition of marriage, this post shows a lack of rational thought. Why? What is your real problem with this issue? My guess is that at some level it's fear, but I don't know why.
 
You are equal before the law. Not being allowed to marry does not make you unequal, it only means that you do not meet the qualifications for marriage. You refuse to simply see that marriage is what it is and cry that you are being discriminated against. You and I are perfectly equal. You can not marry a woman, and I can not marry a man. Equality.

Again, the irrational argument that because a person's skin is black they don't meet the qualifications for marriage to a white person. These "qualifications" are man-made, they vary from culture to culture, down through the ages they have been very different. Why is what we currently have sacred and unchangeable for the harmless happiness of millions of people?
 
You are equal before the law. Not being allowed to marry does not make you unequal, it only means that you do not meet the qualifications for marriage. You refuse to simply see that marriage is what it is and cry that you are being discriminated against. You and I are perfectly equal. You can not marry a woman, and I can not marry a man. Equality.
One of the things that continues to surprise me is that you still use this discredited arguement--it was laid to rest and we now have legal interracial marriages. Why continue to argue it? This is another irrational attitude that you exhibit, but WHY? What's the problem for you?
 
Here's what's bizarre about this attitude towards marriage.

The chief complaint is that it seeks to substantially redefine marriage.

Now, historically marriage has been redefined: one-to-many, one-to-one, age, race and religion.

So here is yet another redefining of it. Since marriage is said to promote social stability, economic stability and often a more stable family environment regardless of sexual orientation I don't see what the big deal is.

Ok, so they don't want make that substantial a change in the term "marriage". Well...call it something else that reflects the level of commitment and confers the same special rights (pension, shared access to health care, inheritance and rights to hospital visitation etc. with out being forced to jump through extra hoops and expenses that heterosexual couples don't have to).

Palerider plays semantical games here by claiming that "no special rights" are conferred on heterosexual marriages - ie - a gay man can marry a woman and a straight man can marry a woman. But that isn't the point.

One can marry the adult consenting human partner of choice - the other can't...and for reasons that have yet to make logical sense.
 
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Here's what's bizarre about this attitude towards marriage.

The chief complaint is that it seeks to substantially redefine marriage.

Now, historically marriage has been redefined: one-to-many, one-to-one, age, race and religion.

So here is yet another redefining of it. Since marriage is said to promote social stability, economic stability and often a more stable family environment regardless of sexual orientation I don't see what the big deal is.

Ok, so they don't want make that substantial a change in the term "marriage". Well...call it something else that reflects the level of commitment and confers the same special rights (pension, shared access to health care, inheritance and rights to hospital visitation etc. with out being forced to jump through extra hoops and expenses that heterosexual couples don't have to).

Palerider plays semantical games here by claiming that "no special rights" are conferred on heterosexual marriages - ie - a gay man can marry a woman and a straight man can marry a woman. But that isn't the point.

One can marry the adult consenting human partner of choice - the other can't...and for reasons that have yet to make logical sense.

Good post, Coyote, and my bet is that Pale will not have the courage to truly address the REAL issues that he has with gay and transgendered people. My brothers are so similar to Pale that I've even thought that Pale might be one of them.
 
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