Oil: Open question to Liberals

[Andy]

yes thats, why I am sure he lefties all know that it was something called SARCASM. I am not realy thinking we should line up the CEO's in the street and giving them a double tap.

Ok maybe YOU were joking. But isn't it funny how all of you liberals have the same stupid joke? You have got to be the 10th person to say exactly that, and an uncountable number who have referred to a similar action. Either everyone single liberal has the exact same joke book your are quoting word for word, or you really do want to run off the CEOs or something, as if they are the problem. Find a better joke, or come up with a new plan.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Ok maybe YOU were joking. But isn't it funny how all of you liberals have the same stupid joke? You have got to be the 10th person to say exactly that, and an uncountable number who have referred to a similar action. Either everyone single liberal has the exact same joke book your are quoting word for word, or you really do want to run off the CEOs or something, as if they are the problem. Find a better joke, or come up with a new plan.

maybe I said it , and we say it, becuse right wing hacks keep useing that straw man all the time.

Straw men are the Rights best Debate partners. Though even then they still lose alot....

 

[Sihouette]

Under Earth's crust, there is a layer of hot and molten rock called magma. Heat is continually produced there, mostly from the decay of naturally radioactive materials such as uranium and potassium. The amount of heat within 10,000 meters (about 33,000 feet) of Earth’s surface contains 50,000 times more energy than all the oil and natural gas resources in the world...

..Geothermal springs for power plants. The most common current way of capturing the energy from geothermal sources is to tap into naturally occurring "hydrothermal convection" systems where cooler water seeps into Earth’s crust, is heated up, and then rises to the surface. When heated water is forced to the surface, it is a relatively simple matter to capture that steam and use it to drive electric generators. Geothermal power plants drill their own holes into the rock to more effectively capture the steam.

There are three designs for geothermal power plants, all of which pull hot water and steam from the ground, use it, and then return it as warm water to prolong the life of the heat source. In the simplest design, the steam goes directly through the turbine, then into a condenser where the steam is condensed into water. In a second approach, very hot water is depressurized or "flashed" into steam which can then be used to drive the turbine.

In the third approach, called a binary system, the hot water is passed through a heat exchanger, where it heats a second liquid—such as isobutane—in a closed loop. The isobutane boils at a lower temperature than water, so it is more easily converted into steam to run the turbine...

...The choice of which design to use is determined by the resource. If the water comes out of the well as steam, it can be used directly, as in the first design. If it is hot water of a high enough temperature, a flash system can be used, otherwise it must go through a heat exchanger. Since there are more hot water resources than pure steam or high-temperature water sources, there is more growth potential in the heat exchanger design.

The largest geothermal system now in operation is a steam-driven plant in an area called the Geysers, north of San Francisco, California. Despite the name, there are actually no geysers there, and the heat that is used for energy is all steam, not hot water. Although the area was known for its hot springs as far back as the mid-1800s, the first well for power production was drilled in 1924. Deeper wells were drilled in the 1950s, but real development didn't occur until the 1970s and 1980s. By 1990, 26 power plants had been built, for a capacity of more than 2,000 megawatts (MW)...

..One concern with open systems like the Geysers is that they emit some air pollutants. Hydrogen sulfide—a toxic gas with a highly recognizable “rotten egg” odor—along with trace amounts of arsenic and minerals, is released in the steam. In addition, at a power plant at the Salton Sea reservoir in Southern California, a significant amount of salt builds up in the pipes and must be removed. While the plant initially started to put the salts into a landfill, they now reinject the salt back into a different well. With closed-loop systems, such as the binary system, there are no emissions; everything brought to the surface is returned underground...

..The U.S. Geological Survey estimates the geothermal resource base in the United States to be between 95,000 and 150,000 MW, of which about 22,000 MW have been identified as suitable for electric power generation.[11] Unfortunately, only a fraction of this resource is currently utilized, with an installed capacity of 2,800 MW (worldwide capacity is approximately 8,000 MW).[12] But thanks to declining costs and state and federal support, geothermal development is likely to increase. Over the next decade, new geothermal projects are expected to come online to increase U.S. capacity to between 8,000 and 15,000 MW. As hot dry rock technologies improve and become competitive, even more of the largely untapped geothermal resource could be developed. In addition to electric power generation, which is focused primarily in the western United States, there is a bright future for the direct use of geothermal resources as a heating source for homes and businesses everywhere. Source: http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/renewable_energy_basics/offmen-how-geothermal-energy-works.html

That's geothermal..

 

[GenSeneca]

maybe I said it , and we say it, becuse right wing hacks keep useing that straw man all the time.

Straw men are the Rights best Debate partners. Though even then they still lose alot....

I think its fair to say theres no shortage of Strawmen, Red Herrings, Hypocrisy etc. coming from both sides. I'm also not interested in winning or losing, go ahead and consider yourself a winner in my book but please answer the following question:

---------->What can Replace Oil?<-----------

Then we can discuss why none of the "Alternatives" being discussed can actually replace oil for what we actually use it for.

I proposed elsewhere that we should try to get 100% of our domestic energy from renewable sources in 10-50 years (shorter with Nuclear). This would reduce more than 1/3 of American GHG emissions in as little as a decade... But GHG's don't seem to be whats important here - Nationalizing the American Oil Companies is clearly a preferable objective.

 

[Sihouette]

solar pond is simply a pool of water which collects and stores solar energy. It contains layers of salt solutions with increasing concentration (and therefore density) to a certain depth, below which the solution has a uniform high salt concentration.

When solar radiation (sunlight) is absorbed, the density gradient prevents heat in the lower layers from moving upwards by convection and leaving the pond. This means that the temperature at the bottom of the pond will rise to over 90 °C while the temperature at the top of the pond is usually around 30 °C. The heat trapped in the salty bottom layer can be used for many different purposes, such as the heating of buildings or industrial hot water or to drive a turbine for generating electricity.

The largest operating solar pond for electricity generation was the Bet Ha Areva pond built in Israel (now the Palenstinian West Bank) and operated up until 1988. It had an area of 210,000 m² and gave an electrical output of 5 MW.[1] Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pond

That's solar ponds.

 

[GenSeneca]

That's geothermal..

22,000 MW have been identified as suitable for electric power generation...
Over the next decade, new geothermal projects are expected to come online to increase U.S. capacity to between 8,000 and 15,000 MW.

In 10 years we will be within 66% of the maximum capacity expected to be obtainable.

Why would you complain we are not doing enough?

 

[Libsmasher]

The "shoot the oil executives" is too funny. In the massively-short-circuiting lib brain, evrything would be fine afterwards. It's also hilarious to hear them whimper about subsidizing oil companies, when what they propose (via Obama) is the subsidization of "alternate energy", which will amount to massive boondoggles for special interests, and not even scratch the surface of the problem.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

The "shoot the oil executives" is too funny. In the massively-short-circuiting lib brain, evrything would be fine afterwards. It's also hilarious to hear them whimper about subsidizing oil companies, when what they propose (via Obama) is the subsidization of "alternate energy", which will amount to massive boondoggles for special interests, and not even scratch the surface of the problem.

subsidizing a new form of energy and new Research makes at least some sense, even if not all need it anymore. But Oil where they are making billions ? what do they need Tax money for? To do what they already make billions at but make even more? its dumb.

 

[Libsmasher]

subsidizing a new form of energy and new Research makes at least some sense, even if not all need it anymore. But Oil where they are making billions ? what do they need Tax money for? To do what they already make billions at but make even more? its dumb.

Only to the clueless. It off loads the large risk to find a commodity essential to US security. When the subsidies end, the amount of oil exploration goes down, imports and prices go up, security goes down. I haven't overloaded your lib brain, have I?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

You are mixing several different things as though they are one in the same...
1. Oil is Finite, no argument. There is NO SUBSTITUTE for what we use it for. Even replacing ALL gasoline, diesel and liquid burning hydrocarbon engines would not reduce our need for oil in other sectors.
2. You say we should find alternatives. WHY do you focus on POWER GENERATION and not the things we actually use OIL for? Like plastics, lubrications, Medical ointments etc.
3. Subsidies. Oil Companies pay far more in taxes than the government gives back in any subsidies. Government also earns more from the sale of gas than do oil companies.

Hemp oil was used for motor oil before petroleum, we have synthetic oils, and plastics made from plants. If we focus on replacing power generation uses with other forms of power we will extend our supplies for the necessary uses of petroleum. You sound as if we are defeated before we start, c'mon, this is the US, we can figure things out so that we don't have to keep doing the stupid stuff that has gotten us into our dependence on foreign oil.

I think it's great that the oil companies pay more in taxes than they get in subsidies--I do too. Stop the subsidies to the oil companies, my company doesn't get any subsidies and we pay a lot in taxes. Let's use the subsidy money to do useful research or rebuild infrastructure like the railroads so that we can have rational public transit like in Europe. Shoot! We have let the infrastructure in our country deteriorate something awful, I just saw where Amtrack only has 662 passenger cars for the whole country and with the gas crunch most of the trains are sold out. What we've done for decades by letting our railroads, roads, and bridges go begging for maintenance is insane, now we've got $5 a gallon diesel and we're dependent on trucks for a huge amount of our freight delivery. We've been goin' the wrong way for a long time and now we need to recognize that and change our direction.

According to economists studying the costs of our Middle East war we are spending $5000 per second for a cost of nearly 3 trillion dollars when one figures in the care for the thousands of wounded Americans and the staggering cost of replacing all the equipment that has been used up, destroyed, or lost. One cannot pull that kind of money out of any country's economy and expect it to survive. Do you realize that our military budget is bigger than the next 10 biggest military budgets in the world combined? That's insane and we can't afford to keep spending like that without destroying our economy. There's more than enough money to solve our problems if we spend it wisely, killing people halfway around the world is hardly wise.

 

[Libsmasher]

Hemp oil was used for motor oil before petroleum, we have synthetic oils, and plastics made from plants. If we focus on replacing power generation uses with other forms of power we will extend our supplies for the necessary uses of petroleum. You sound as if we are defeated before we start, c'mon, this is the US, we can figure things out so that we don't have to keep doing the stupid stuff that has gotten us into our dependence on foreign oil.

I think it's great that the oil companies pay more in taxes than they get in subsidies--I do too. Stop the subsidies to the oil companies, my company doesn't get any subsidies and we pay a lot in taxes. Let's use the subsidy money to do useful research or rebuild infrastructure like the railroads so that we can have rational public transit like in Europe. Shoot! We have let the infrastructure in our country deteriorate something awful, I just saw where Amtrack only has 662 passenger cars for the whole country and with the gas crunch most of the trains are sold out. What we've done for decades by letting our railroads, roads, and bridges go begging for maintenance is insane, now we've got $5 a gallon diesel and we're dependent on trucks for a huge amount of our freight delivery. We've been goin' the wrong way for a long time and now we need to recognize that and change our direction.

According to economists studying the costs of our Middle East war we are spending $5000 per second for a cost of nearly 3 trillion dollars when one figures in the care for the thousands of wounded Americans and the staggering cost of replacing all the equipment that has been used up, destroyed, or lost. One cannot pull that kind of money out of any country's economy and expect it to survive. Do you realize that our military budget is bigger than the next 10 biggest military budgets in the world combined? That's insane and we can't afford to keep spending like that without destroying our economy. There's more than enough money to solve our problems if we spend it wisely, killing people halfway around the world is hardly wise.

Boondoggles which will just waste money and socialized transportation by the same people who brought you the post office and the DMV - count me out. And the new record for an absurd characterization of the iraq war - we just want to kill "people halfway around the world".

 

[GenSeneca]

If we focus on replacing power generation uses with other forms of power we will extend our supplies for the necessary uses of petroleum.

Nobody else in the world has been trying to do this?

Stop the subsidies to the oil companies

I don't think the Government should subsidize ANYTHING or ANYONE. Ethanol is subsidized $1.38/gallon - and Ethanol is ALLOWED to build refineries - which are also subsidized by taxpayers! We do TOO much for "Alternatives" already, there needs to be a better solution FIRST - we've got at least 50 years of oil left!

We have let the infrastructure in our country deteriorate something awful, I just saw where Amtrack only has 662 passenger cars for the whole country and with the gas crunch most of the trains are sold out.

Infrastructure, thats what the government is responsible for maintaining. Amtrack is privately owned and operated, its the fault of the public for not supporting the business with their money.

We've been goin' the wrong way for a long time and now we need to recognize that and change our direction.

And be like Europe? No thanks.... Cars, individual vehicle transportation, is one of the biggest contributors to the American economy. You need a replacement BEFORE you end what we have now.
Centralizing populations leads to, among other things, loss of freedoms, higher rates of poverty, higher rates of disease, higher rates of crime, greater pollution of air and water, Cities create hot spots on the surface... There nothing good enough about cities that outweigh the bad.

Do you realize that our military budget is bigger than the next 10 biggest military budgets in the world combined?

Have you any concept of what our budget looks like?

Iraq and Afghanistan are but a percentage of our military budget.... Which is out spent 3-1 by entitlement programs. If we are spending $5000 per second in Iraq - then that means we are spending at least 20,000 per second at home already.

There's more than enough money to solve our problems if we spend it wisely

I agree the government has more than enough money. I don't however trust them to spend it wisely, I'd rather the taxpayers keep all that unnecessary money in the first place.

 

[Sihouette]

The solutions to the energy crises aren't as hard as BigOil is making them out to be.

They want it to seem hard, expensive and impractical to maintain their price-fixing record-profit making hold on the market of energy consumption. It's the biggest industry in America after all and they're just being good capitalists..

The solutions are simple:

1. Increase all forms of acceptable and safe (not nuclear>they use this as a scare-tactic to herd people back to oil) technology at-site. In other words if the city in question is located next to thermal vents, you use geothermal. If the city sits in the desert, you use solar. If the city is Chicago, you use wind..and so on. If the city is near a natural water fall/flow you use hydro. Each city has an energy authority and centralizes a power grid to serve its citizens who either pay a premium or are taxed to support the energy production. In most cases costs should be quite low since most alternative types of energy cost most to setup and very little to maintain and keep running.

2. Maximize efficiency in the types of things that still need fossil fuels...until hydrogen car technology stops being suppressed by BigOil, we make laws that no passenger car is allowed to get under 40 mpg. Give tax breaks and subsidies to people who carpool or use mass transit. Keep the prices of gas high for commuters but low for shippers/trucking/farming companies and other vital suppliers of goods to keep food and merchandise prices low, spurring the vitality of the economy. For farmers who utilize alternatives to petrol products like using wind or sun, hydro or geothermal to power their farms and who employ organic methods that eliminate or greatly reduce petroleum based peticides and herbicides..more subsidies and tax breaks. In other words we give people incentives to conserve while still keeping our economy rolling and productive.

3. Give tax incentives to BigOil to join up with #1 and #2, or else.. Pass legislation forcing BigOil to carve a fraction of their megaprofits to fund development of alternative energy production sites all over the nation, giving them shares in exchange in the companies themselves but never allowing them to gain dominant shareholding, keeping the maximum at say, 30%. Pass laws that make preference of more polluting and/or dangerous and/or non-efficient madatorily subjegated to more clean, safe and efficient ones. We can pass "energy efficiency, cleanliness and safety" acts that protect citizens from being manipulated into a war in Iraq and held hostage by one superprovider like BigOil forever.

 

[GenSeneca]

The solutions to the energy crises aren't as hard as BigOil is making them out to be.

They want it to seem hard, expensive and impractical to maintain their price-fixing record-profit making hold on the market of energy consumption. It's the biggest industry in America after all and they're just being good capitalists..

The solutions are simple:

1. Increase all forms of acceptable and safe (not nuclear>they use this as a scare-tactic to herd people back to oil) technology at-site. In other words if the city in question is located next to thermal vents, you use geothermal. If the city sits in the desert, you use solar. If the city is Chicago, you use wind..and so on. If the city is near a natural water fall/flow you use hydro. Each city has an energy authority and centralizes a power grid to serve its citizens who either pay a premium or are taxed to support the energy production. In most cases costs should be quite low since most alternative types of energy cost most to setup and very little to maintain and keep running.

2. Maximize efficiency in the types of things that still need fossil fuels...until hydrogen car technology stops being suppressed by BigOil, we make laws that no passenger car is allowed to get under 40 mpg. Give tax breaks and subsidies to people who carpool or use mass transit. Keep the prices of gas high for commuters but low for shippers/trucking/farming companies and other vital suppliers of goods to keep food and merchandise prices low, spurring the vitality of the economy. For farmers who utilize alternatives to petrol products like using wind or sun, hydro or geothermal to power their farms and who employ organic methods that eliminate or greatly reduce petroleum based peticides and herbicides..more subsidies and tax breaks. In other words we give people incentives to conserve while still keeping our economy rolling and productive.

3. Give tax incentives to BigOil to join up with #1 and #2, or else.. Pass legislation forcing BigOil to carve a fraction of their megaprofits to fund development of alternative energy production sites all over the nation, giving them shares in exchange in the companies themselves but never allowing them to gain dominant shareholding, keeping the maximum at say, 30%. Pass laws that make preference of more polluting and/or dangerous and/or non-efficient madatorily subjegated to more clean, safe and efficient ones. We can pass "energy efficiency, cleanliness and safety" acts that protect citizens from being manipulated into a war in Iraq and held hostage by one superprovider like BigOil forever.

1. Advocating Socialism
2. Advocating Socialism
3. Advocating Socialism

Can NONE of these problems be solved with LESS government?

 

[SW85]

According the the US geological survey, there is enough domestic oil to eliminate imported oil.

For a time -- assuming we could tap it all, immediately. We can't do either.

So your theory is that unless we have a plans to pursue alternative energy... drilling and exploring for oil will not produce more crude oil and will not increase supply and will not reduce imported oil, and will not reduce oil prices? Explain why

It would produce more crude oil (in time), but to what end?

It may bring oil back under $3 a gallon, which would be nice. But it will not last forever. It will be useful as a means of lessening our dependence on an unstable foreign supply while we arrange for alternative methods of power -- for instance, building, supplying, and bringing online nuclear power plants.

I'm perfectly OK with drilling domestically, but it must be recognized as a way to keep us going during our transition to alternative energy (namely nuclear, the only worthwhile form of alternative energy out there that I'm aware of).

Further, we have pursued alternative energy everywhere. We have bio-crap fuels, we have ethanol scams, we have wind farms that can't replace anything, we have some hydropower that eco-nutz are screaming about, we have geothermal where it can be used, we have H2scams all over the place. What do you mean we don't have alternative fuels being pursued? Explain.

Again, nuclear energy is the only one worth pursuing.