Over 1,800 Iraqi civilians killed in August ...yee-haww surge is working

berreal

berreal

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20543737/

Now I know what the right wing zealots are going to do ...dig up numbers to say ..."well its less than last month or last year ...blah-blah-blah!

But I really don't care ....nor do I care if it was 1,600 or 1,700 ...if this number is even close to reality on the ground ..it will be nauseating hearing bush spin this.

Mind you ..they don't have functionaing hospitals, medicine..clean water and limted electricity. The number quoted is as a result of attacks ...with all the other dismal factors ..you can bet those dieing of diseases or lack of care is not even counted.

Yeah ..the surge is working ...yyyeee-haawww!!
 
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Yes, another sign of the utter failure of this countries "nation-building" foray into Iraq.

What is missed by the "surge" is what the solution to the violence in Iraq is. Somehow, this administration thinks the answer to that question is to increase the number of troops and create a more and more oppressive occupation... This strategy worked so well for Israel in the palisinean territories that they have endured terrorist attacks for decades. Why they think it will work in Iraq is beyond me.

The only way to stop the violence is for the local population of Iraq to turn against all the violence and support their government in fighting it. This requires them to Support their government.... As long as the Government is perceived as the US lapdog, it will never be fully supported. Almost no one over there wants the US to come out smelling like roses, to the extent that most support attacks on American troops and I believe, results in failure to support the government as an indirect way not to support America.

The only long term resolution is to truely let Iraq be autonomous and to withdraw the US troops. And we will need to accept that the government that forms will most likely not be our friend. (Hint, if most people in the country don't like us, then a democratic government reflective of the people will not be our best friend.)

Sure, this will not stop the violence in the short term, but the US occupation and "surge" is not doing this either. There is no resolution to the short term violence until the government is forced to make the concessions to form a unity government and establishes itself as the power in the country.
 
Not to mention the fact that the amount of opium and heroin being produced from poppies has reached its highest ever.
 
Who's lying

USMC the Almighty said:
We're talking about MSNBC. So by "Iraqi civilians" you of course mean al Qaeda operatives.
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First, you are just plain lying if you think it was 1,800 Al Qeada operatives. This statement by you just shows the state of deep delusion you must live in.

Second, If there really are 1,800 Al Qeada operatives a month being killed month after month, and 27,564 killed since AP began collecting data on April 28, 2005, then that would just show our foray into pre-emptive nation building to be an even worse failure than it already is.

But go ahead, try to spin tens of thousands of innocent people being killed and thousands of Americans being killed as "progress"...
 
Hard Driver said:
First, you are just plain lying if you think it was 1,800 Al Qeada operatives. This statement by you just shows the state of deep delusion you must live in.

Second, If there really are 1,800 Al Qeada operatives a month being killed month after month, and 27,564 killed since AP began collecting data on April 28, 2005, then that would just show our foray into pre-emptive nation building to be an even worse failure than it already is.

But go ahead, try to spin tens of thousands of innocent people being killed and thousands of Americans being killed as "progress"...
Click to expand...

Relax. I was making a point about more about MSLSD than anything else. No one knows who's a civilian and who isn't so these "statistics" are aribtrary estimates. The line between insurgent and civilian is extremely blurry.

Second, I'm not really sure how these numbers support your argument that the American military should withdraw from Iraq. If you truly care about Iraqi civilians (which I highly doubt) then you would want us to stay there until the country is secured.
 
USMC the Almighty said:
Relax. I was making a point about more about MSLSD than anything else. No one knows who's a civilian and who isn't so these "statistics" are aribtrary estimates. The line between insurgent and civilian is extremely blurry.

Second, I'm not really sure how these numbers support your argument that the American military should withdraw from Iraq. If you truly care about Iraqi civilians (which I highly doubt) then you would want us to stay there until the country is secured.
Click to expand...

Ok lets stay there untul the Iraqis are all dead!!

Since you can't see that its our presence that creating the killing!

The hypocrisy rears its ugly head again. Remember back in '02 when saving suffering Iraqis was all the rage on the right? Remember when part of the rationale for attacking Iraq was to save those killed by Saddam in the 80's?

For 6 years now they same hypocrites watched the carnage on TV with absoltely no concern for the 1000's killed monthly, the 1,000's having to leave their country for neighboring countries, and the 1,000's living in squalor in refugee camps!!

The hypocrisy is so ingrained ...so deeply rooted!!

No wonder they tried to defend Craig!
 
There is no magic bullet to end the violence in Iraq. Whether we stay or go, the violence will continue in the short run.

The question is, what will end the violence. The answer is that the solution is not a military one. No side can "win" militarily. Even if we put 1,000,000 troops on the ground, we would still be suffering loses, even if we did reduce the violence. Once the troops are withdrawn, the violence will continue unless a POLITICAL solution is created.

This idea that we need to stay to "buy time" for the Iraqi government to work out their political problems is just plain wrong. One, this is not a worthwhile cause to ask Americans to sacrafice their lives for. Two, there is no real knowledge that our presence is reducing the violence significantly or our presence is helping Iraq move forward politically.

The fact of the matter is that the Iraqi government needs to control Iraq. Until the people of Iraq turn to their government instead of our soldiers for their security, then Iraq can not be secure. Until violence is not perceived as an American failure, the violence will continue, because it highlights America's failure.

If we withdraw, the "disaster" is that we will have egg on our face and Bush's legacy will be failure. Well, we already have egg on our face and Bush's legacy will certainly be that of a failure. And don't use the "emboldening the enemy" arguement as the reason to stay. This "emboldening" arguement is just as idiotic as if a schoolyard kid dares you to lick a frozen flagpole and you do it to prove something. Al qeada should not be dictating US policy.

Leaving Iraq will force the Iraqi government to fill the void, make political progress, and end the violence sooner, rather than later. Our presence is not "buying time" for the Iraqi government, our presence is "extending time" until the issues causing the violence are resolved. All that will end up doing is causing more destabilization and more violence.
 
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In '04 I said the Us will cut-and-run ...no matter who wins... I still believe that today. The difference is that Democrats will be more honest about doing so.

What bush will do if we get out in any significant number before he leaves is what he has been doing all along.

Create props and back-drops to provide an illusion of success and leave behind a green zone to get the oil..and an Iraq thats almost a total disaster. But then we won't be able to get any report of the chaos ..because no reporter will be able to survive outside the green zone when we have limited troops to protect them.

Ofcourse bush will hold his .."mission accomplish" photo op to claim Iraqis are happy and Iraq is fixed..and the hypocrites in th republi-CON party will want this to recorded as such historically.

And the disaster will be left with his successor to deal with or ignore.
 
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