Palestine/Israel

[capitalist_junkie]

Nobody here is ignorant of what is going on in Palestine and Israel . . .

It frustrates me that these two countries are so horribly opposed. And while I often want to feel sympathy for the Israelis (considering all of the persecution they faced throughout pretty much all of history), I see that their actions are just as bad as Palestinan ones. It's hard to figure out who is right in this issue when both sides behave inhumanely. What is your position?

 

[Brandon]

Capitalist_junkie,

I added your poll, since you mentioned you had a hard time doing it. I also edited out your questions within the post.

I am not sure what you were having trouble with, but when you create a new thread there is a checkbox at the bottom of the screen that allows you to add a poll. I hope this helps for the future; if not PM me.

Now a comment for the thread.

I feel that they are equally at fault. Even though Israel has superior firepower, that does not excuse palestine's actions of blowing up buses and other places civilians work, live and sleep. Both sides need to come to an agreement they can both live with.

 

[sushimonster]

I would have to take the opposing viewpoint. Since Palestine is up against a force much stronger than themselves, they have to resort to methods less used or immoral.

 

[daria564]

Since Palestine is up against a force much stronger than themselves, they have to resort to methods less used or immoral.

perhaps it's idealistic of me - but I really don't want to think that this is the right way to behave. as many americans who are opposed to the war in Iraq know, civilians don't always have control over the wars their countries fight. it is morally indefensible to target the average civilian - it's terrorism.

 

[capitalist_junkie]

Thanks for fixing this for me!

The situation is growing so intense, I'm borderline apathetic about it. I understand why Israel wants their Holy Land, but I also understand why Palestine is angry. I can't really think of a good solution, either . . . At this point, I'm almost willing to say let it be, they'll figure it out eventually.

 

[daria564]

I'm almost willing to say let it be

I'm more and more becoming inclined to believe that problems like this are better off without outside interference. when outside nations create artificial solutions, it seems that the solutions often just crumble and create more of a mess than was there to begin with.

 

[Word2Action]

The fighting has been and will continue to go on forever until the end of time. It makes no sense to me but if they want at it, go ahead.

 

[vicki2]

It's like a virus between Palestine and Israel that can't be cured. You think it's all better and then it comes back with a vengence. I understand what they're fighting about, but I'm weary of it too. If you look at the history, it seems they will always fight or one will have to be annihilated.

 

[capitalist_junkie]

And I don't think any US interference can or will help. Look at our record for attempting to aid in political skermishes like this. I don't think we've provided effective solutions to other countries' problems since WWII.

 

[daria564]

in fact, our actions at the end of WWII *created* a lot of these problems in the first place.

 

[framed]

I ran across this article while surfing newsvine. One particularly interesting statistic:

"While principally 75% of Palestinians do not think that Israel has the right to exist, 70% support a one-state solution in historic Palestine where Muslims, Christians and Jews live together with equal rights and responsibilities. "

My two cents: The "who's land was it first?" argument really just never holds up anywhere. Someone was always there before the last someone... Focusing on cutting up or reuniting land seems to be an extraneous problem. Figuring out how to live with the people near you and treat (and be treated) with respect are really more core to solving the long term problem.

 

[Andy D]

I will take a position that is sure to attract comments against me: I fully support Israel. The Palestinians have been dealt a raw deal, but not by the Israelis. The Palestinians don’t have a home because the Arab nations kicked them out of their borders. Twice the Arab nations told the Palestinians to leave Israel. The Arabs said they were going to go in and kill the Jews, and then the Palestinians could come in and have the whole place. Both times the Arab nations failed, and both times caused more Palestinians to flee Israel.

Ask yourself this question: Who has a better life: A Palestinian living in Israel or a Jewish family living in a Palestinian controlled area?

 

[framed]

You might think the Palestinians who were gassed and had their homes bulldozed by the Israels were delt a raw deal by them then, but maybe thats just nitpicking.

I still stay making the argument that "Palestine was here first, and so Israel should go away" is effectively the same as "the American Indians were here first, so Americans should hop the next boat back to Europe." Its just not realistic or reasonable to expect decedents to pay for their parents misdeeds. The statute of limitations has passed so to speak.

That being the case Israel exists now, and thus should continue to exist. The focus should be getting both sides to start respecting human rights again. The suicide bombings need to stop just as much as the home bulldozing and gassing. I support Israel's right to exist, but I don't support providing them billions in military aid and UN support to effectively support war crimes. We don't fund terrorist organizations either, so it seems fair to me that we not fund the other side of this pretty barbaric fight.

To answer your question, anyone living in a Palestinian controlled area (be they Israeli or Palestinian) would be worse off day to day than they would were they in Israel. That one is rich does not morally justify wiping out the poor.

>>Related question, but not directly related to the argument: Does anyone know the citizenship status of "native" Palestinians born on land declared to be Israel in '48? (or descended from people who were?) There was a comment in another thread about Israel being a democracy, but those people sure seem underrepresented. Did they give up their citizenship, or were only Jewish people given citizenship in Israel after '48? Reading some of the wiki it would seem to imply that if you aren't Jewish in Israel you don't have a right to be represented. Does anyone know if thats the case? Considering they were at war the day after they were created, I could see it being complicated, but I cant find the answer.

 

[Andy D]

The point I was trying to get to is this: As a Jew living in Palestine, you take your life into your own hands, as a Palestinian living in Israel; you have the right to vote. That is a huge difference. You repeatedly site cases of Israel bulldozing houses and gassing people. The gassing is news to me. The bulldozing is typically done in areas where suicide bombers are building bombs to blow up people in Israel.

I am not saying Israel doesn’t have any blood on their hands. However, Israel is interested in a peace process. Many times Israel has given land and other concessions to the Palestinians. There are no instances where the Palestinians have simply acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.

 

[framed]

You said: "as a Palestinian living in Israel; you have the right to vote" I'd really like a reference for that. I'm not calling you a liar but I can't find any indication that its true, and only some anecdotal evidence that its false.

According to this Amnesty International Report, Palistinains seem not to be considered citizens. Palistinians working in the occupied territories (their words not mine) can't even have their spouses visit. So between having your home demolished, being denied access to your spouse and family, I have a hard time seeing how Israel is inherently treating Palistinians better than Palistinians treat Israelis. Their tactics are different, but not seemingly any better.

Regardless of who's precisely the worse of the two, we seem to be in agreement that both sides are behaving very badly. I'm in agreement that its in everyone's best interest if Israel continues to exist as well. I just don't see why on one side we should be encouraging the bad behavior with Israel, while on the other we should be condemning it with the Palestinians.

Side note: Are we the only two left on the site? <.<