Should toturing be allowed?

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I am thinking that maybe there is a difference when you have the support of the people you are fighting for...the "Ike" test Eisenhower used to determine whether or not to go to war.
 
All morality aside, the problem with torture is this; once it becomes acceptable to the people as a practice, how do they prevent it from being used against them? This is a very real "slippery-slope" scenario. Today we're torturing forgiegn enemies, but what about tomorrow? Could it be applied to political dissidents? To prisoners? If the army can do it, why not the police? Someone once said that power can be defined as a monopoly on violence. No state should be entrusted with so much arbitrary power. Especially ours.
 
Torture absolutely and 100% and without any further discussion, should NOT OCCUR. It's reprehensible, it's inhumane, it's insane. The information gleaned from torture may or may not be true, if the person knows nothing, is he just a casualty of war? Supporting this is inhuman. I'll stop now before I Godwin. I hate these threads. Morality falls through the floor.
 
USMC the Almighty said:
No it doesn't. What does the justification for a particular war have to do with the means of fighting said war?
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I don't think it does have any bearing on it. Torture should not be used by anyone at any time. If others debase themselves in order to use it we should not do likewise. If we lower ourselves to their level then we are no different than they.
 
Mare Tranquillity said:
I don't think it does have any bearing on it. Torture should not be used by anyone at any time. If others debase themselves in order to use it we should not do likewise. If we lower ourselves to their level then we are no different than they.
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Very high ideals for someone who has never actually been shot at. It is fine to sit back in your righteousness, 10,000 miles from the shooting and talk about how we "should" go into war. It is an entirely different thing to actually go into war.

Do you realize that the british lost in the revolutionary war because they wouldn't "lower" themselves to fight on the level we fought on? They insisted in fighting in blocks of soldiers in the open fields like war was some sort of chess game and would not think to lower themselves to shooting from behind a tree. Their highmindedness got them killed in the tens of thousands and eventually lost them the war.

You fight your enemy to win. If you don't, he will defeat you.
 
palerider said:
Very high ideals for someone who has never actually been shot at. It is fine to sit back in your righteousness, 10,000 miles from the shooting and talk about how we "should" go into war. It is an entirely different thing to actually go into war.

Do you realize that the british lost in the revolutionary war because they wouldn't "lower" themselves to fight on the level we fought on? They insisted in fighting in blocks of soldiers in the open fields like war was some sort of chess game and would not think to lower themselves to shooting from behind a tree. Their highmindedness got them killed in the tens of thousands and eventually lost them the war.

You fight your enemy to win. If you don't, he will defeat you.
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theres that Braggadicio again
quite fond of it i see .Frankly I could care less if you have ever been shot at. And your arrogant self seems to forget the fact that many of the folks here online have also travelled thousands of miles from home in order to serve theyre country

Im sure your not the only swingin D*ck who has been shot at in theatre as a matter of fact i know your not....funny i dont see the others spew on about as you do though...yes when it was raised as whether or not your genuine i can see why now



hey everyone Palerider needs some acknowledgment of his prowess as a past soldier he longs for your acceptance .this is why he continues to toot his horn...........you all have at least one member i am POSITIVE has given FAR MORE of himself than pale ever imagined................. and he NEVER EVEN MENTIONS IT.................pale has mentioned it many times...those who know dont disuss it as candidly as our friend pale here does.
 
Abraxis Axis said:
hey everyone Palerider needs some acknowledgment of his prowess as a past soldier he longs for your acceptance ..
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Nothing of importance to say I see, and certainly nothing to add to the conversatiuon. Just impotently shooting from the sidelines as usual, as if someone asctually spoke to you. I suggest that you go vote for yourself a couple of more times as the best poster here and then come back and tell me that I long for acceptance. You should also work out your idiot spelling mistakes as well so it isn't quite so blatantly obvious that you and roker are one in the same.

What a hypocrite.
 
palerider said:
Nothing of importance to say I see. Certainly nothing to add to the conversatiuon. Just shooting from the sidelines as usual. I suggest that you go vote for yourself a couple of more times as the best poster here and then come back and tell me that I long for acceptance.

What a hypocrite.
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i dont need acceptance big guy I am an Assh^ole of the highest magnitude its my JOB I cant vote for myself any more than once, and i have already done that so ??? your a bit fixated.......l..go on tell us what its like to be shot at will ya huh huh will ya? im sure theyre all waiting to hear it
 
palerider said:
Very high ideals for someone who has never actually been shot at. It is fine to sit back in your righteousness, 10,000 miles from the shooting and talk about how we "should" go into war. It is an entirely different thing to actually go into war.

Do you realize that the british lost in the revolutionary war because they wouldn't "lower" themselves to fight on the level we fought on? They insisted in fighting in blocks of soldiers in the open fields like war was some sort of chess game and would not think to lower themselves to shooting from behind a tree. Their highmindedness got them killed in the tens of thousands and eventually lost them the war.

You fight your enemy to win. If you don't, he will defeat you.
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If one sells their (metaphorical) soul to win, they've lost anyway. Resorting to ANY tactic that helps you win is a decision that each person has to make for themselves and you continuing to bash at me for my "righteous" and "self-righteous" attitudes says more about you than about me.

We are not going to end up agreeing on this subject and you trying to make torture an integral part of war and life in general brings up an interesting question in my mind: you are advocating a philosophy of the ends justify the means, but is there ANYTHING that you wouldn't do to win? Take it to the furthest extreme you can conceive, is ANYTHING beyond what you would be willing to do? If so, why?
 
palerider said:
Nothing of importance to say I see, and certainly nothing to add to the conversatiuon. Just impotently shooting from the sidelines as usual, as if someone asctually spoke to you. I suggest that you go vote for yourself a couple of more times as the best poster here and then come back and tell me that I long for acceptance. You should also work out your idiot spelling mistakes as well so it isn't quite so blatantly obvious that you and roker are one in the same.

What a hypocrite.
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And i put my 2 cents in on the second page? so i already said, what i had to say here? I already added to this thread many posts ago?
 
Abraxis Axis said:
theres that Braggadicio again
quite fond of it i see .Frankly I could care less if you have ever been shot at. And your arrogant self seems to forget the fact that many of the folks here online have also travelled thousands of miles from home in order to serve theyre country
Im sure your not the only swingin D*ck who has been shot at in theatre as a matter of fact i know your not....funny i dont see the others spew on about as you do though...yes when it was raised as whether or not your genuine i can see why now



hey everyone Palerider needs some acknowledgment of his prowess as a past soldier he longs for your acceptance .this is why he continues to toot his horn...........you all have at least one member i am POSITIVE has given FAR MORE of himself than pale ever imagined................. and he NEVER EVEN MENTIONS IT.................pale has mentioned it many times...those who know dont disuss it as candidly as our friend pale here does.
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Well, I don't know about Pale's military record or any of that, but I do know that frightened people will do ANYTHING no matter how monstrous to cope with their fear. Torture is just one of those monstrous things. Pale is afraid of losing his life and he apparently has no religious beliefs (none espoused and he expressed contempt towards me once for assuming that he had some beliefs) and thus I guess he sees nothing wrong with grabbing all the gusto he can by living the Might is Right lifestyle. I'm sorry for him in that it must be difficult to live a life that might push one towards accepting something as cruel and disgusting as torturing other human beings.
 
Mare Tranquillity said:
you are advocating a philosophy of the ends justify the means, but is there ANYTHING that you wouldn't do to win? Take it to the furthest extreme you can conceive, is ANYTHING beyond what you would be willing to do? If so, why?
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If you have an enemy, and you decide that you can no longer tolerate that enemy's existence and go to war with him, you had better be prepared to win. The "ends justify the means" has nothing to do with war.

Contrary to liberal ideas of getting along with our enemies in order to fashion some sort of peace are naive' as a best case senario and more likely suicidal. Peace comes after you have crushed the life out of your enemy.
 
Abraxis Axis said:
i dont need acceptance big guy I am an Assh^ole of the highest magnitude its my JOB I cant vote for myself any more than once, and i have already done that so ??? your a bit fixated.......l..go on tell us what its like to be shot at will ya huh huh will ya? im sure theyre all waiting to hear it
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If it hasn't happened to you, you couldn't grasp it, even if I wrote you a 10,000 word essay. You seem envious and bitter for some reason. Why is that?
 
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palerider said:
If you have an enemy, and you decide that you can no longer tolerate that enemy's existence and go to war with him, you had better be prepared to win. The "ends justify the means" has nothing to do with war.

Contrary to liberal ideas of getting along with our enemies in order to fashion some sort of peace are naive' as a best case senario and more likely suicidal. Peace comes after you have crushed the life out of your enemy.
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What a sad and ugly way to live.

You didn't answer my questions, Pale.

After thinking about this for a couple of hours I think anyone who feels somewhat like Pale does should watch the movie V is for Vendetta. Pale, like many religions, is selling fear, he talks power and stirs up fears in others to justify brutality in a pointless attempt to quell his own fear. Frightened people who give in to their fears torture others, it takes great strength to compassionate in face of fear.
 
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