Why Not Disband The US Military?

Are you really telling me that we are so very weak, that we need a military force 6 times greater than the next one to assure that we can resist attacks???

No. I am telling you that the missions we assign to our military are vastly different than those assigned to the military of another country. What matters is that we equip our military to handle the missions we assign it, not arbitrarily decide that we spend too much on it.

That doesn't sound like you put much faith in our military to begin with!

I have the utmost respect for the military.

And obviously this huge military machine is a drain on our economy. . .but you are correct that it feeds the economy of other countries!

The dollars spend in Italy, for exemple in Aviano: The housing market is booming because OUR dollars are paying housing for our soldiers there, housing that they would NEVER have
access to here in the States on their salary! In fact, as I said before, my brother is renting two of his houses near Aviano to two American soldiers, at a price that is twice what he could get out of the local Italians. . .because it is the "running price" decided by our military!

I believe that those dollars (about $1,200 a month for a one bedroom apartment) would be much better used if they were spent right here at home, to help our military HERE to be able to afford decent homes, and to trigger the LOCAL economy, instead of the economy half way across the world!

You are missing the entire point. If I pay someone dollars, which happens somewhere along the way in this transaction, what then happens to those actual us dollars?

What do you think happens when Japan builds a new HONDA factory in the U.S.? It helps the local US economy, a lot more than it helps the Japanese economy.

Yes, it does help the US economy, but it doesn't hurt the Japanese economy. My point is that if I have US dollars, what are my options with them? Answer that and then we can proceed.

Yes, I know, we are moving closer and closer to world economy. . .but the fact is that we are still in need of money being spent HERE, rather than abroad. If that was not the case, why would we even complain about
corporations taking their manufacturing overseas?

I don't complain about such a thing. I think it is an overblown fear. It is not like we no longer have the ability to build things here.
 
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I don't view the military as something solely to protect American territory, I view it as an entity to protect American interests.
It seems that the military is being used to protect the interests of American businesses, not necessarily the interests of working class Americans.
If we simply pulled back and disbanded, it would leave a major power void all over the world. That is going to be filled by someone, be it China, Russia, whatever.
The countries in which we have inserted our power, may prefer to be the masters of their own countries. They should have the right to fill their own "void", and not have their resources drained by American businesses.
The way I see it is this...we can either have a strong military, be a global power, and shape the world (for the most part) how we want it to be, or we can not do that and have the world shaped for us. Which do we want?
Shaw of Iran, Viet Nam, seems like our "shape (ing), the world (for the most part) how we want it to be...", has not worked all that well. Perhaps we should mind out own business and let other countries mind theirs. Or, are we still worried about the domino effect?
 
It seems that the military is being used to protect the interests of American businesses, not necessarily the interests of working class Americans.
The countries in which we have inserted our power, may prefer to be the masters of their own countries. They should have the right to fill their own "void", and not have their resources drained by American businesses.
Shaw of Iran, Viet Nam, seems like our "shape (ing), the world (for the most part) how we want it to be...", has not worked all that well. Perhaps we should mind out own business and let other countries mind theirs. Or, are we still worried about the domino effect?


I agree!

Our "shape the world" would be a lot more effective if we could get back to being a real ECONOMIC power. . .rather than draining our economy to be a ridiculously expensive MILITARY power!

China is much closer than we are today to be a "world power." And it is NOT because of their military might!

If military expenses were "good for the economy," North Korea would be thriving economically!
 
It seems that the military is being used to protect the interests of American businesses, not necessarily the interests of working class Americans.

Can you expound on this?

The countries in which we have inserted our power, may prefer to be the masters of their own countries. They should have the right to fill their own "void", and not have their resources drained by American businesses.

As opposed to drained by Chinese or Russian businesses? The idea that if we stepped aside everyone would peacefully be allowed to govern themselves is lunacy.

Shaw of Iran, Viet Nam, seems like our "shape (ing), the world (for the most part) how we want it to be...", has not worked all that well. Perhaps we should mind out own business and let other countries mind theirs. Or, are
we still worried about the domino effect?

The millions upon millions of people who no longer live under communism might disagree with you.

Yes we make mistakes, but judging those actions based on anything other than the situation of the day is dishonest.
 
I would prefer the "old" army though. Made up of mostly draftees who were paid a privet's wage of $78.00 a month, marriage discouraged for the lower ranks (much less money for dependents), had to get CO's permission to marry. Had to live in open bay barracks. Uniforms were free, food was free, medical and dental were free; $78 a month was enough for incidentals.
"Professional Military" is much too expensive. Without the draft, pay has to be high enough for an inducement to join. Restrictions (no marriage), has to slight so as not to discourage enlistment.
The draft virtually insured that there would be a trained supply or reserves in the event of war.
However, a draft does not work (too much dodging), if a serious war develops, so it would have to be a scenario as the original post...going to war only if homeland is attacked.
Seems we need a "professional Army", if we are going to be continually engaged in military adventurisum as we have been for several years.
Oh, well...I warned people when the draft ended that if ended, it would almost be impossible to reinstate.
 
I agree!

Our "shape the world" would be a lot more effective if we could get back to being a real ECONOMIC power. . .rather than draining our economy to be a ridiculously expensive MILITARY power!

You keep repeating this. Let's see some actual economic data that proves our military is a drain on the economy.

China is much closer than we are today to be a "world power." And it is NOT because of their military might!

China has been smart with their economic power, but without being able to protect such power by force if needbe they run into trouble. This is clearly why they are spending a lot of money now on their military and their ability to project military might.

If military expenses were "good for the economy," North Korea would be thriving economically!

If government in general were good for the economy, NK would be thriving too.
 
You keep repeating this. Let's see some actual economic data that proves our military is a drain on the economy.

Okay, let's see if you can show that our military is helping our economy? Do you have actual economic data showing that?
Here is one quick link:
Seymour Melman (1917–2004), a professor of industrial engineering and operations research at Columbia University, focused much of his energy on the economics of the military-oriented state. Melman’s work amounted to an extended analysis of the true costs not only of war but also of the military establishment itself. As he observed,

"Industrial productivity, the foundation of every nation’s economic growth, is eroded by the relentlessly predatory effects of the military economy. …Traditional economic competence of every sort is being eroded by the state capitalist directorate that elevates inefficiency into a national purpose, that disables the market system, that destroys the value of the currency, and that diminishes the decision power of all institutions other than its own." - Melman

China has been smart with their economic power, but without being able to protect such power by force if needbe they run into trouble. This is clearly why they are spending a lot of money now on their military and their ability to project military might.

Give me a break! Could you please name ONE country (including ours) who would be able to try a military attack against China??? And their military is 1/6th of ours! It is their economic mights who inspire respect and fear, not their military!

If government in general were good for the economy, NK would be thriving too.


You forget that the ONLY government in N. Korea is a MILITARY DICTATORSHIP! And it's not working!
 
Can you expound on this?
I and everyone I know (working class), receive no benefit from Coke, McDonald's, Exxon, etc. having businesses in the middle east and elsewhere.
The millions upon millions of people who no longer live under communism might disagree with you.
Obviously you do not believe that communism did not end because it was too inefficient to survive? I guess that is why China is no longer communist (except in name only). I though you right-wingers always maintained that inefficiency killed communism.
Yes we make mistakes, but judging those actions based on anything other than the situation of the day is dishonest.
??? I have no idea what you mean. Do you mean to say that, "At least we meant well"?
 
As opposed to drained by Chinese or Russian businesses? The idea that if we stepped aside everyone would peacefully be allowed to govern themselves is lunacy.
I agree on this one. I am terrified that some Chinese company will open a Chinese restaurant across the street from a McDonald's in Saudi Arabia and drive out the Micky D's. The horror! The horror!
And what the hell gives them the right to suck our oil from under Iraq's sand! The nerve of them...just let them try.
 
You keep repeating this. Let's see some actual economic data that proves our military is a drain on the economy.



I just found an excellent study making the comparison between what military expenditure represents in economic growth and what the same amount of expenditure apply to alternate areas of the economy would represent in economic growth. I recommend that you go to this study and read it carefully. It seems fair and balanced.

[PDF] The U.S. Employment Effects of Military and Domestic Spending ...
www.ips-dc.org/reports/071001-jobcreation.pdfSimilar- Block all www.ips-dc.org results
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
by R Pollin - 2007 - Cited by 9 - Related articles
current level of military spending by the U.S. government that has been largely neglected is its effects on the U.S. economy. $600 billion is a vast sum of ...
 
I just found an excellent study making the comparison between what military expenditure represents in economic growth and what the same amount of expenditure apply to alternate areas of the economy would represent in economic growth. I recommend that you go to this study and read it carefully. It seems fair and balanced.

[PDF] The U.S. Employment Effects of Military and Domestic Spending ...
www.ips-dc.org/reports/071001-jobcreation.pdfSimilar- Block all www.ips-dc.org results
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
by R Pollin - 2007 - Cited by 9 - Related articles
current level of military spending by the U.S. government that has been largely neglected is its effects on the U.S. economy. $600 billion is a vast sum of ...

Your reference got messed up. This is what it should be.
http://www.ips-dc.org/reports/071001-jobcreation.pdf
That is a very definitive article. Just looking at Table 2 in that reference shows your point at a glance. The military creates fewer jobs than any other sector. Furthermore the jobs it creates are considerably slanted to the government payroll.
 
I have wondered what it would take to re-purpose big parts of the military. We have tens of thousands of young men and women in this country who would be far better off if they had two or three years of military-like service, learning how to work and drawing a reasonable paycheck so they could be responsible adults.
 
Everyone.
That's not an answer, it's an evasion. If you really believe that every single country in the world is ready to attack the US, and/or our interests abroad, then lets start with your best example: Which country do you consider to be the most likely to attack the US with conventional military forces?

The fact that China won't invade the US, therefore we ought to disband the military is simplistic and lacks strategic thought.
The biggest threats coming from China are industrial espionage (stealing trade secrets) and cyberwarfare, having the largest conventional military, and the largest stockpile of nukes, does absolutely nothing to combat or deter those threats.

We are already battling with China over influence in resource rich areas,
Our military is engaged in armed conflict with China?

and with Russia over pipeline access etc that plays a major role economically and in terms of security.
Our military is engaged in armed conflict with Russia?

Plus, cutting off Chinese imports hurts the American consumer just as much as it hurts the Chinese. How many Americans are going to sit around thinking it is oh so great to pay triple what they were used to for products at Wal-Mart? You don't think that will impact the US economy?
That's the Economic form of MAD that results from having a global economy. You spoke about deterrents, economic collapse is a huge deterrent.

Plus, if we just void all our debts with China over some dispute, how many nations do you suppose are going to line up to buy our debt? Zero.
Some dispute? I'm talking about a military attack on the US. Any nation that holds our debt should know without asking the question that if they invade our country, whatever debt we owe them will be considered null and void. The only countries who would be deterred from purchasing our debt after such an event, are those that plan to attack America.


Ha, tell that to Europe and parts of Asia where Russia is making huge plays to control the flow of natural gas into Europe and basically dominate Europe with threats of cutting the flow off...something we have ALREADY seen happen.
That's Europe and Asia, not America. Let the them fight their own battles, with their own money and their own soldiers.

That is just wishful thinking. We signed the NNPT decades ago with the hope that it would cause nations to ultimately give up their nuclear arms...that has been a total failure at this point in my opinion, what makes it somehow different with conventional forces?
We've had nuclear capability for the better part of a century and we've only ever used two, TWO! We've built THOUSANDS in that time! During that same span of time we have actually used our military for armed conflict in just about every corner of the globe. So that in itself makes it a bad comparison.

But let's say you're right, lets say that eliminating our military would be entirely unilateral, no other nations would follow suit... We'd still have over 500,000 men and women in the National Guard and Coast Guard combined, entirely sufficient to patrol our EEZ's and protect American soil from foreign threats. Meanwhile, we'd save hundreds of billions of dollars every year.

And just how long do you believe America will remain in our position as lone super power with the greatest military on earth? You should consider the fact that our mandatory spending is increasing every year and there is absolutely nothing that would indicate this trend will halt, much less be reversed.

Increases in mandatory spending come at the expense of discretionary spending, and our entire military budget is paid for out of discretionary spending, so the cuts are going to happen eventually whether we like it or not. By phasing out and disbanding the military, we will be doing what's already inevitable by choice, rather than out of necessity. If we wait till it's too late and have to disband the military out of fiscal necessity, we are going to go down in the history books as having gone the way of the Roman and Soviet empires.
 
Okay lets just say we do disband the military. What would the consequences be?

First, I am willing to consider disbanding the military which must blow the minds of lefties who have been brainwashed to think ALL right wingers love spending lavishly on the military...just another lie promoted by the left elite and their media, and dutifully believed by some.

But, if we were to dismantle the military all the savings must be used appropriately rather than spent by progressives/liberals to expand the welfare state....which we all know they would do.

I believe the consequences could be very detrimental. We know the left has always wanted to eliminate the military and we know they are ALWAYS wrong. But, it is were debating.
 
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I believe the consequences could be very detrimental.

Expand on those beliefs, that's the point of this thread. And...

Do you believe America would be invaded/attacked by conventional military forces as a result of disbanding our military? If so, from which country or countries?
 
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