Another theory that must be rejected by conservatives

One point was that the speed of light being a constant is counter intuitive.

Lots of things are counter intuitive, but correct nonetheless.

Can you think of something more counter-intuitive than the constancy of the speed of light IN ALL REFERENCE FRAMES????

But regardless of your understanding of moving reference frames and the gallilean transformation, there are evidences to suggest that the speed of light is not constant elsewhere in the universe.

Let's see..

That is how I understand the theory of relativity as well, it is based on the constant speed of light, in space that is. Light does slow down in a denser medium.

Nonsense. Relativity defines c as the speed of light in vacuum -- which is constant in all reference frames. Clearly, light can slow down by passing it through a medium.

So, is the speed of light a constant? This seems to indicate that it is.

Its funny that you would mention the fine structure constant since this one of the evidences that light may not be constant -- from observations of cosmic rays very very far away.
 
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Can you think of something more counter-intuitive than the constancy of the speed of light IN ALL REFERENCE FRAMES????

But regardless of your understanding of moving reference frames and the gallilean transformation, there are evidences to suggest that the speed of light is not constant elsewhere in the universe.

Then please, give us a link to those evidences.



Nonsense. Relativity defines c as the speed of light in vacuum -- which is constant in all reference frames.


Isn't that the same concept you were questioning before? :confused:


Clearly, light can slow down by passing it through a medium.

Which is exactly the same thing I said. Light slows down in a denser medium.

Its funny that you would mention the fine structure constant since this one of the evidences that light may not be constant -- from observations of cosmic rays very very far away.

Fine structure constant?

Here is the link I gave. Where does it say "fine structure constant"?

Why not give us some evidence of how observations of cosmic rays very far away shows that light speed may not be a constant?
 
Then please, give us a link to those evidences.






Isn't that the same concept you were questioning before? :confused:




Which is exactly the same thing I said. Light slows down in a denser medium.



Fine structure constant?

Here is the link I gave. Where does it say "fine structure constant"?

Why not give us some evidence of how observations of cosmic rays very far away shows that light speed may not be a constant?

From the article you posted:

"...By eliminating the dimensions of units from the parameters we can derive a few dimensionless quantities, such as the fine structure constant and the electron to proton mass ratio. These values are independent of the definition of the units, so it makes much more sense to ask whether these values change. If they did change, it would not just be the speed of light which was affected...."

There are a lot of vsl theories (thats varying speed of light, fyi).

You have this:

http://arxiv.org/abs/0708.2927

The VSL Discussion: What Does Variable Speed of Light Mean and Should we be Allowed to Think About ?

and this one:

http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0505034

Quantum Creation of a Universe in Albrecht-Magueijo-Barrow model

and this one:

http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0502070

Quantum cosmologies with varying speed of light and the Lambda problem

http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0404066

Variable Speed of Light Cosmology and Bimetric Gravity: An Alternative to Standard Inflation

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0305457

New varying speed of light theories

I'd be happy to muddle through these highly technical papers with you if you're honestly into questioning the implications of einstein's relativity.
 
From the sources I have mentioned, the last one, authored by jao maguiejo, is perhaps the easiest to understand. He says:

6.3 Threshold and gamma-ray anomalies and other experimental
tests
Besides its motivation as a phenomenological description of quantum gravity, non-linear relativity
has gained respectability as a possible solution to the puzzle of threshold anomalies[59,
60] (see also [69, 56, 57, 58, 157, 158, 159, 64] for other experimental implications).
Ultra high energy cosmic rays (UHECRs) are rare showers derived from a primary cosmic
ray, probably a proton, with energy above 1011 Gev. At these energies there are no known
cosmic ray sources within our own galaxy, so it’s expected that in their travels, the extragalactic
UHECRs interact with the cosmic microwave background (CMB). These interactions
should impose a hard cut-off above Eth0 ≈ 1011 Gev, the energy at which it becomes kinematically
possible to produce a pion. This is the so-called Greisen-Zatsepin-Kuzmin (GZK)
cut-off; however UHECRs have been observed beyond the threshold [161, 162] (see Fig. 6.3).
A similar threshold anomaly results from the observation of high energy gamma rays above
10 Tev [163], but in this case it’s far less obvious that there is indeed an observational crisis....

8 The observational status of VSL
In the middle of the current observational revolution in cosmology, it’s easy to forget that
some nasty surprises have also fallen from the sky. Examples include claims for cosmic
acceleration [1, 2, 3, 4], or the mounting evidence [19, 18] for a redshift dependence in the
fine structure constant α
. Cosmologists can no longer, as in Dirac’s quote opening this paper,
make “any assumptions that they fancy”; instead it appears that they must grapple with the
issue of selecting which observations to take seriously. Most of what passes for observation
in cosmology is plagued by systematic errors. Some of these “facts” could evaporate like fog
should a new technological revolution come on line unexpectedly.
It is nonetheless interesting that several observational puzzles can be solved by VSL.With
appropriate supplementary observations, the redshift dependence in α could be seen as the
result of a varying c. Another puzzle, already studied in Section 6.3, was the observation
of rare very high energy cosmic rays, in conflict with standard kinematic calculations based
on special relativity, which predict a cut-off well below the observed energies. This could
represent the first experimental mishap of special relativity, and evidence for some VSL
theories. Finally, even the accelerating universe may be part of a varying c picture of the
world.
How can this meager evidence be extended? Unfortunately there are two obstacles to
the observation of a varying speed of light. The first relates to the discussion in Section 2
and affects those aspects of VSL which are not dimensionless. It is easy to place oneself
in a no-win situation (e.g. by defining units in which c is a constant), but as explained in
Section 2 the impasse may be solved by testing the dynamics of the theory. The issue of
testability is more direct regarding the dimensionless aspects of a varying c.
More seriously, however, all tests of a varying c face a second hurdle: the effects predicted
are invariably either well beyond the reach of current technology, or at best on the threshold.
In what follows we describe a number of observations which would either provide positive
detection of VSL effects, or imply constraints upon the parameters of the theory. We also
stick the neck out, venturing a number of predictions of the theory.

Tell me, does the above paper indicate whether the author is conservative or liberal????
 
The speed of light is not in fact constant...as you can slow the speed of light down, we have, to something like 38 miles per hour....with extrem cold temps near zero kalvin.

No, no, no.

Its not so much the speed of light (which we know to decrease depending on the medium through which light travels) but a sort of cosmic speed limit which coincidentally equals the speed of light travelling in vacuum. This speed limit cannot be breached simply because the field equations are reduced to irrational quantities.

What einstein postulated as a constant c is the speed of light travelling through a constant gravitational metric. And for all intents and purposes, the michelson-morley experiment, (what plc1 is harping about in this thread) does prove a constant c.

But that simply is not the case elsewhere in the universe, especially when one contemplates the cosmological fluid (a continuous fluid where entire galaxies are considered as a mere particle in relative scale).

In fact, that is the whole strategy of vsl. It does not seek to debunk einstein's relativity (which is sacrosanct in its field) but rather define the parameters by which lorentz invariance is violated. The implications are simply astounding. For one thing, it provides the mathematical framework by which a universe expands at an accelerating rate. It is the simplest way by which one understands how the nascent universe could have expanded at a rate of a couple of thousand times the speed of light (as standard inflation suggests but somehow couldn't convincingly prove). And most importantly, it strikes at the very heart of the principle of conservation of mass and energy. And when one can conceiveably expect that mass and energy are not conserved, then what one is left to logically conclude is simply a process of CREATION -- literally something coming out from nothing.
 
Isn't that the same concept you were questioning before? :confused:

Now, you are using your head for a change. You are correct. The same standard by which a varying speed of light is criticized may just as easily be used to criticize a constant speed of light. After all, when one states a scientific principle, its converse logically follows.

When one cites an experiment (michelson-morley for instance), what makes you think that it proves anything except choose some reference frame by which length contraction and time dilation is constant everywhere, hmmm? Couldn't one just as easily choose another reference frame that would yield an entirely different result? After all, length and time are...well....relative.

Fine structure constant?

Here is the link I gave. Where does it say "fine structure constant"?

Yes, that's atomic fine structure constant (designated as 'alpha') -- a dimensionless quantity related to the absorption of radiation. That is how we know what far away objects are made of -- by the way it abosrbs certain wavelengths and reflects others.
 
Now, you are using your head for a change.

Really enjoyed your posts Numinus in both threads. It is apparent you are very knowledge on these subjects.

Sorry you had to endure the inane posts from our two beloved liberal posters. But, you most effectively destroyed their posts.

Your critical comments of PLC (really his name is THC due to his excessive use of the evil weed) and Duh-hermit (aka Ludington Geezer) are really much appreciated. Very funny...:)
 
I accept the scientific method without question. That's the direction the facts and observations point, so, until new facts not currently in evidence come to light, yes, I accept the theory of evolution, the theory of relativity, and global warming theory to be correct as currently understood.

Just curious. Which "facts" lead you to accept the theory of macroevolution or the hypothesis (it hasn't achieved the status of theory) of global warming. I am always interested in facts and just as interested in what many people percieve and accept as fact.
 
Just curious. Which "facts" lead you to accept the theory of macroevolution or the hypothesis (it hasn't achieved the status of theory) of global warming. I am always interested in facts and just as interested in what many people percieve and accept as fact.

He heard it on MSLSD. So, it must be right.

And Pale, I love your signature.
 
You said their views were a form of bigotry...

Bigotry: stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.

Do you really consider yourself tolerant of their views?

You seem to thnk that lying and deception is acceptable behavior. Why is that?

You were arguing that their beliefs violated your rights, not that they affected you... Which of your rights are they violating by having an opinion that differs from your own?


Go back and read my prior response. It's all there.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

A local school board is not Congress.

And you blame this on Religion?

Local public school boards exist largely because of Federal taxpayer dollars that are paid to them to educate our children. Are you of the opinion that somehow the 1st amendment doesn't apply to them?

Are you suggesting that if we allowed prayer in school that the Creationists and ID'ers would go away?

Don't be obtuse.

Ah yes... You did say they needed to "get an education" (which I can only presume means abandon their views and agree with yours) or they should go away.

Right. Let's throw Newton out the window. He didn't discover anything important, and the Bible doesn't say anything about gravity so it doesn't exist. Really? Is this what you want for our children?

My question still remains... How do you propose to make that happen?

Education is the only way things will change. Now, perhaps you think society should revert back to the dark ages, and if so, perhaps you should sell your computer. I think that society should move forward and stop fighting the same stupid battles with the same people over and over again. The jury is out. The Scopes trial is over.
 
That's a rather dishonest way of looking at it.

If a ball falls on the ground when it is dropped, it is gravity regardless of whether you understand what gravity is to begin with, correct?

In the same manner, the law of inertia states that a body will remain at rest or in uniform (inertial) motion UNLESS AN OUTSIDE FORCE ACTS ON IT, correct?

So, when we see the universe currently EXPANDING AT AN ACCELERATING RATE, we would conclude that at its INITIAL STATE (the current theory being a space-time singularity), an outside 'force' must have acted upon it.

Is that a scientifically logical enough conclusion?

But wait, we are talking about the universe. What else is there OUTSIDE the universe, hmmmm?

And here I am not even talking about how the words 'outside' or 'before' are entirely meaningless concepts as far as singularities are concerned.

You are assuming, apparently, that in the beginning the universe was a body, with solidity, and unmoving before something acted upon it. On the contrary, there is no evidence that matter even existed at the beginning. Rather, the big bang says that the universe began as an infintesimally small point of energy with infinite density and temperature. Energy is always in motion and has no mass, so in what way does the law of inertia apply?
 
You are correct. The theoretical physics community is about as tribal and dogmatic as a medieval cleric. They will not hesitate to gut any competing theory that would jeopardize a fat grant or research time with the large hadron collider.

The thing is, einstein's relativity rests on a single, completely counter-intuitive postulate -- the constancy of the speed of light. I mean, if the fundamental units of physics such as length and time are relative quantities, how can something like the speed of light (a quantity defined by these 'relative' quantities) be constant?

The speed of light in a vacuum has been shown both in experimental observatons and in direct observations in the real world to agree to a very high degree with Einstein's equation. It has been measured for over 150 years, and has never varied more than the statistical error of the measurements. It's not like he made this stuff up out of thin air. It is so acccurate, in fact, that we know the distance from the Earth to the moon at any point in it's orbit to a very high degree of accuracy by bouncing lasers off reflectors left there by the Apollo astronauts.
 
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I never intended to claim any of the many lorentz variant theories as my own. I invited you to check them out, and see for yourself if their theories are related to their politics.

And quite frankly, this is the same bs attitude the theoretical physics community has heaped on anyone who might suggest the possibility that c is not constant.

As I said -- it is quite possible that scientists could be as dogmatic as a medieval cleric.

Well, the problem there is that over 100 years of experimentation and direct observaton has upheld the fact that the speed of light in a vacuum is constant. It isn't for the physicists to prove you wrong. It is for you to prove 100 years of research wrong. That's why they seem a bit arrogant when it is brought up by those who don't have the data to back up their claims to the contrary.
 
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