Bush

[jb_1430]

Read the 'illicit drugs' section.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush_substance_abuse_controversy

See...I'm not making it up. Sorry to break the news to you bro.

Yes, I can now see that you rely upon others to make this shiit up. Revealing the type of evidence that leads you to conclude the facts.
MARK

In a biography of Bush, Fortunate Son (ISBN 1-887128-84-0), James Hatfield investigated claims that Bush had been arrested for cocaine possession and that he had the record expunged; Hatfield said he found corroboration from three people close to the Bush family. Bush called Hatfield's book "totally ridiculous" but declined to discuss whether he had used drugs before 1974. [17]. Critics have pointed out the sources for the book are unnamed and the facts uncorroborated. Four days after its publication the book's publisher, St. Martin's Press, discovered that Hatfield had been previously convicted of attempted murder and spent five years in jail. When faced with the allegations Hatfield initially denied them but later admitted they were true. St. Martin's recalled the book and mothballed others.

 

[Kelly]

Still there? Oh come on, you should at least comment about link!

 

[Kelly]

In all probability it's true. It's foolish to automatically write-off everything that conflicts with what you want to believe. That's like saying "Clinton says he didn't inhale and nobody can prove it, so it's all just made up." Dude, EVERYONE knows Clinton inhaled! No one presented evidence that proved it, but we all know he did it. It's the same thing in this instance. Open your eyes (and your mind)!!!

 

[jb_1430]

In all probability it's true.

I think your assesment of probability is probably a function of your desire to believe its true. MARK

 

[USMC the Almighty]

"
1. More debt than all previous President's combined (WHOA!!!)

This may be true, but I wouldn't be surprised if FDR's deficit spending created a debt that rivals Bush.

2. Worst response ever by a federal disaster agency

Are you talking about 9/11 or Katrina? At any rate, I would argue that Reconstruction was the worst federal response to a disaster. And the specific agency has little to do with the sitting President. That stuff carries through from one president to the next.

3. Largest increase in poverty since the depression.

Free market capitalism.

5. First president to run and hide when the U.S. came under attack (and then lied saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1).

Monroe and War of 1812 when they burned the Whitehouse. I don't even know if this is true, but if this is the worst you can say about a President, then he's pretty good.

4. Bush appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.

6. Set all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated U.S. law by not selling huge investments in corporations that bid for government contracts.

7. For the first time in our history, a significant number of administration officials and supporters, including perhaps the President himself, must keep themselves and their party in power to avoid criminal indictment, conviction, and imprisonment.

I don't even know if this is true and don't really care to research it. All presidents have had corrupt administators (Grant, Harding, FDR, Nixon, etc.)-- perhaps Bush's just got caught.

 

[Kelly]

"I think your assesment of probability is probably a function of your desire to believe its true. MARK"
--Trust me, I really DON'T WANT to believe this stuff.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

- Spying on his people more than any administration since Stalin

Wrong. Not only did Clinton use the same NSA program that Bush did, but he also authorized phyiscal searches (which Bush did not). In addition, does the ECHELON program mean anything to you?

- Highest incidents of suspected election fraud

On both sides. And suspected incidents doesn't mean a thing.

- Broke more international treaties than any in history

Which treaties has he broken?

- The institutional use of torture.

Not only wrong, but doesn't have to do with the President. The President publicly condemns torture. The Abu Gharib "torture" was carried out by a few rogue enlistees.

- Largest increase in poverty since the depression.

Free market capitalism.

- Bush appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.

Addressed above.

- First administration to out a CIA agent for partisan reasons

Valerie Plame wasn't covert by the CIA's definition.

- Bush presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any market in any country in the history of the world.

Has nothing to do with President.

- Bush is the first president in US history to compel the United Nations remove the US from the Human Rights Commission.

Roll eyes.

- Bush refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abides by the Geneva Convention.

Show me proof that it was Bush personally who "refused to allow inspectors to US POWS". Since when has anyone abided by the Geneva Convention. And if you are referring to GITMO -- just to let you know, the Red Cross is permanently stationed there so there is no getting around 24/7 scrutiny. Sailors often joke that the POWs get better treatment (food, beds, etc) than they do.

- Signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any president in U.S. history.

In relation to contemporaty size of gov't, Jackson was a more powerful executive.

- All-time U.S. (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations.

So?

- First president in U.S. history to unilaterally attack a sovereign nation against the will of the United Nations and the world community.

It wasn't unilateral. And Arab countries do it all the time.

i think it was Ben Franklin who said something like, "When Fascism comes to America it will be drapped in the flag and carrying the cross"

There is a new type of Fascism in the world

I believe it was Sinclair Lewis of the 20s "Lost Generation" who said that. Not only does he have no credibility with me, but if America was Fascist, as you contend, then you wouldn't even be able to sit here and type this.

 

[vyo476]

Oh, one more thing about our COKEHEAD. In, Texas, under certain circumstances, a person can get a conviction expunged. That means that ALL records, including arrest and jail records get sealed forever. Being Governor of Texas definitely falls under the 'circumstances' required to get a conviction expunged.

And what, no one brought it up while he was running for governor? We live in a world of smear tactics - no WAY did something like that get below his opponent's radar, then or in 2000 or especially in '04.

And the reason that this didn't ever get dragged to the forefront and stick there the way his DUI and service with the National Guard did? Because the lack of solid evidence for it is so prevalent that even Michael Moore wouldn't touch it. That says something.

 

[Kelly]

USMC, thanks for posting! I was hoping to get your thoughts on this. Ok...here we go...

"This may be true, but I wouldn't be surprised if FDR's deficit spending created a debt that rivals Bush."
--But at least FDR did it to pull us out of the Depression.

"Are you talking about 9/11 or Katrina? At any rate, I would argue that Reconstruction was the worst federal response to a disaster. And the specific agency has little to do with the sitting President. That stuff carries through from one president to the next."
Katrina for sure! Ok...Reconstruction takes the cake! You win that one, but I wasn't thinking of Reconstruction in the same context as Katrina. However, I do hold Bush or any other president accountable for the performance of government agencies--at least in hind sight.

"Free market capitalism."
--Yes..and it's nasty downside.

"Monroe and War of 1812 when they burned the Whitehouse. I don't even know if this is true, but if this is the worst you can say about a President, then he's pretty good."
--Good point. And, I agree this in-and-of-itself is not such a bad thing. But, Bush wants us all to believe that he's such a basass and 'stay the course,' etc. While your colleagues are getting shot at for a questionable cause.

"I don't even know if this is true and don't really care to research it. All presidents have had corrupt administators (Grant, Harding, FDR, Nixon, etc.)-- perhaps Bush's just got caught."
--Come on man! You're willing to follow orders from and fight for someone who is corrupt? Don't you care about that? I care that you're getting shot at for something that might be about money instead of the protection of our country and rights.

--

 

[vyo476]

This may be true, but I wouldn't be surprised if FDR's deficit spending created a debt that rivals Bush.

True. You have to examine the amount of deficit spending, not the size of the debt, to get an accurate picture of a President's economic habits.

Are you talking about 9/11 or Katrina? At any rate, I would argue that Reconstruction was the worst federal response to a disaster. And the specific agency has little to do with the sitting President. That stuff carries through from one president to the next.

Personally, I think Reconstruction is a bit of a stretch (there's a huge difference between 9/11 and the end of the Civil War) but that does not change the fact that you are right about it being a federal disaster (thank you, Mr. Grant).

Free market capitalism.

Death to laissez-faire!

Monroe and War of 1812 when they burned the Whitehouse. I don't even know if this is true, but if this is the worst you can say about a President, then he's pretty good.

If my history serves me correctly Monroe was already outside Washington when the British attacked and burned it. Whether or not he hid when word came they were burning our capital is a little irrelevant - as is whether or not Bush hid (or was hidden) directly after 9/11. What was he supposed to do, go charging up to the Towers as they were falling and shake his fist menacingly at the Middle East? Knowing GW he'd probably have turned the wrong way and accidentally started a nuclear war with China.

I don't even know if this is true and don't really care to research it. All presidents have had corrupt administators (Grant, Harding, FDR, Nixon, etc.)-- perhaps Bush's just got caught.

Grant and Harding were especially notorious for their corrupt administrations. As for whether or not someone is a former criminal - in a way I think that qualifies someone more for government. You can't learn without making mistakes and getting tossed in jail is indicative of big 'ole flubbing mistake. If you can bounce back from that and put up a credible fight for political office, and withstand the enormous clods of mud that would be thrown at you by any and all opponents, then you're pretty close to having my vote.

 

[vyo476]

Wrong. Not only did Clinton use the same NSA program that Bush did, but he also authorized phyiscal searches (which Bush did not). In addition, does the ECHELON program mean anything to you?

Didn't Nixon get in trouble for something like this too?

On both sides. And suspected incidents doesn't mean a thing.

Election fraud? You mean kinda like "I lost...I demand a recount!"?

No, that's not fraud, it's just being a whiner baby.

Not only wrong, but doesn't have to do with the President. The President publicly condemns torture. The Abu Gharib "torture" was carried out by a few rogue enlistees.

Are you crazy? When will you sheeple realize that everything that goes on in every military detention center administered by the US gets all of its orders directly from the President? And that they never, ever, do anything without his express direction?

Open your eyes already!

Free market capitalism.

If the Ghost of Christmas Past ever decides to visit you, I can almost guarantee it'd choose to look like Karl Marx. Just for you.

Really, that's not such a bad thing. From what I've read about him he was a huge drinker and great at parties.

Valerie Plame wasn't covert by the CIA's definition.

So are you okay with what transpired?

Show me proof that it was Bush personally who "refused to allow inspectors to US POWS". Since when has anyone abided by the Geneva Convention. And if you are referring to GITMO -- just to let you know, the Red Cross is permanently stationed there so there is no getting around 24/7 scrutiny. Sailors often joke that the POWs get better treatment (food, beds, etc) than they do.

Anyway, the Geneva Convention wasn't designed for this particular breed of detainees (as Dave pointed out in one of the other threads - which thread was that again?). Still, we need to come up with a better system, because no matter how nice and fluffy the beds are down at Gitmo, being held there still means being held against one's will and unless we can provide a good, clear reason for doing so we really don't have a right to keep them.

As for conditions - it's a prison. It is not meant to be nice. It is meant to keep detainees in one place. It is meant to keep them alive and healthy.

In relation to contemporaty size of gov't, Jackson was a more powerful executive.

Much. Were you a fan of Jackson by any chance, USMC? I wrote a paper comparing him to Hitler when I was in high school, but now I view him as more of a mixed bag. Still like Jefferson more though - economics aside.

So?

So corporations are EEEEEEEEEEEEVIL. My little red book told me so...

It wasn't unilateral. And Arab countries do it all the time.

Yeah. We had Lichtenstein on our side. So long as Lichtenstein stays in the fight we're okay.

Please. If it weren't for us that attack would never have happened. We had very little real support - Britain and Australia were the only two to stand very firmly behind us and Britain only did so because of Tony Blair.

 

[jb_1430]

"Ohhhhh nonsense. Kerry and his Drs knew all along that he still had a piece of shrapnel in his leg. They had just never revealed this fact in a press conference before. MARK"
--Duh! My point was that KERRY SAW A LOT OF ACTION IN VIETNAM. Stop being so desperate to find technical flaws and talk about the relevant facts!

???? He saw 3 months. Average tour of duty in Vietnam was 12 months. Most guys served more than 1 tour. MARK

 

[TVoffBrainOn]

I believe it was Sinclair Lewis of the 20s "Lost Generation" who said that. Not only does he have no credibility with me, but if America was Fascist, as you contend, then you wouldn't even be able to sit here and type this.

I understand your opinion that torture is ok, election fraud is all about recounts, and spying has been going on forever so that's ok too...

but what bothers me is the bolded response, which you've come back at me with numerous times. "If America was Fascists you'd be sent to the Gulag" and stuff like that. I dont see the point you are trying to make.

why do you think 21st century fascism has to parrallel 20th century fascism?

- Fascism - a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

- a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power
"I Am the Decider"

- forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism
See the 2004 Republican National Convention in New York

- regimenting all industry, commerce, etc.,
Not only that, but the Corporate world has it's finger and money in nearly every policy decision made by our government.

- emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism
That's pretty self evident on this board alone.

The bottom line is that over the last century the governemnt, corporate and religious (church) sectors have gotten closer and closer. That's the simplest formula for fascism.

21st century fascism would more accurately be called Corporatism, and that's what america has become.

 

[vyo476]

- a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power
"I Am the Decider"

So in your world, executives aren't supposed to be able to make decisions?

- forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism
See the 2004 Republican National Convention in New York

This was a notable black eye, but then again none of those protesters were shot. Let's see a few dozen more instances of this - and some summary executions - before we go crying fascist.

- regimenting all industry, commerce, etc.,
Not only that, but the Corporate world has it's finger and money in nearly every policy decision made by our government.

And, what, that wasn't true with Clinton?

- emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism
That's pretty self evident on this board alone.

Actually, Bush has made the distinction time and again that we're hunting radical extremists, not Islam itself. There are plenty of people who believe the latter but the President is not one of them.

The bottom line is that over the last century the governemnt, corporate and religious (church) sectors have gotten closer and closer. That's the simplest formula for fascism.

Either that or reaction to a problem that isn't as bad as you think it is the simplest formula for communism.

 

[TVoffBrainOn]

So in your world, executives aren't supposed to be able to make decisions?

Im not going to get into a 3 page argument over the executive. If you don't think there has been a massive power grab over the last 6 years then let's just agree to disagree.

This was a notable black eye, but then again none of those protesters were shot. Let's see a few dozen more instances of this - and some summary executions - before we go crying fascist.

How about a few hundred over the last 50 years?

And, what, that wasn't true with Clinton?

It's been true for a century. Bush just happens to be driving the final lap.

Actually, Bush has made the distinction time and again that we're hunting radical extremists, not Islam itself. There are plenty of people who believe the latter but the President is not one of them.

I could get you a few Hitler speeches. "We must protect the homeland"

Either that or reaction to a problem that isn't as bad as you think it is the simplest formula for communism

which problem is being overreacted to? terrorism? More Americans die from the crap the FDA approves for us to put in our bodies, than terrorism. American Corporatism/Fascism kills more people a year than Terrorists have ever killed on american soil.