1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Discuss politics - join our community by registering for free here! HOP - the political discussion forum

Circus at Saddleback

Discussion in 'Elections & Political Parties' started by Libsmasher, Aug 17, 2008.

  1. Libsmasher

    Libsmasher New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2008
    Messages:
    3,151
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Saddleback church, the place where McCain and obama are speaking today, is right across from one of the gyms where I workout. I expected a few demonstrators, but was surprised at the hundreds of people on the street corners after I came out of the gym. On one corner was a crowd of appeasers and pro-palestinians, on another was a mob of Obamabots. Another corner had ron paul supporters. I could tell which corner I wanted to go to - the one with all the american flags. That was a group protesting the illegal alien invaders. I was stunned when I turned around at one point and saw Jim Gilchrist, founder of the Minutemen. I shook hands and got my picture taken with him. :) Also on that corner was some group with a funny website name and AARP on their signs. They were all oldsters - I asked one woman who they were supporting - she said Obama and healthcare reform - the Greedy Geezers true to form. There were all kinds of odd lot crazies. My neighbor, who belongs to the church, was pissed because only a few members of the church got tickets. Long time since I've been in any kind of demo - it had a carnival atmosphere. :)
     
  2. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2008
    Messages:
    11,790
    Likes Received:
    257
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    The people's republic of Eugene
    I would have liked to go and say thanks to the Minutemen. Were there any crazy ACLU nut jobs screaming we shouldn't have public figures in a church?

    My Grandmother loves that man who is running the event. I wonder who he is voting for.
     
  3. Libsmasher

    Libsmasher New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2008
    Messages:
    3,151
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    There was one guy with a sign, I remember, that said "there is no separation of chuch and state." The pastor is Rick Warren. He gives sunday sermons dressed in casual clothes. He started as the minister for a group of ten people with no church. Now he has Saddleback church, which has several buildings on a compound of 105 acres, and with over 20,000 church members it is the second largest church in the US. He is personal friends with Obama and McCain. Last time (2004) he supported Bush. This time, he has not publically supported anyone.
     
  4. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2008
    Messages:
    11,790
    Likes Received:
    257
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    The people's republic of Eugene
    Let me know if he puts his support behind obama so i can burn the book of his, my grandmother got me to buy (but i never read)
     
  5. Libsmasher

    Libsmasher New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2008
    Messages:
    3,151
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Incidentally, I think the forum is still going on . You can see it online at

    http://saddleback.com/flash/

    ......although their server may be overloaded now. It's also on CSPAN.
     
  6. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2008
    Messages:
    11,790
    Likes Received:
    257
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    The people's republic of Eugene
    the news is covering it too but my daughter is watching a movie so i have to wait.


    teh best and worst of it will be on the news i am hoping.
     
  7. Libsmasher

    Libsmasher New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2008
    Messages:
    3,151
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I saw parts of both candidates, and a commentary on MSNBC - the consensus was Obama lost. I watched Obama for about ten minutes - he was extremely evasive.
     
  8. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2008
    Messages:
    11,790
    Likes Received:
    257
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    The people's republic of Eugene
    I hope there will be youtubes exc so we can make fun of it.


    Did he do any of the cute stuff? 57 states, great lakes in Oregon, I see dead vets....
     
  9. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2008
    Messages:
    11,790
    Likes Received:
    257
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    The people's republic of Eugene
    It seems he would have to walk softly, He cant show to much interest in God religion or Jesus, the will offend his base
     
  10. Libsmasher

    Libsmasher New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2008
    Messages:
    3,151
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Rick Warren:
    “Forty million abortions since Roe v. Wade. At what point does a baby get human rights in your view?”

    Obama:
    “Whether you are looking at it from a theological perspective or a scientific perspective, answering that question with specificity, you know, is above my pay grade. “

    Ooooooooooooooooo - the "Intellectual" of the Age, but it's above his pay grade! :D
     
  11. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2008
    Messages:
    11,790
    Likes Received:
    257
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    The people's republic of Eugene
    I get less and less surprised by his stupidity and more and more shocked at the blind followers who will come up with some wierd reason why it was a good thing to say knowing when life starts was above his pay grade. Basicly he is saying he is to stupid to know, but we must not forget, he has the judgement to lead....


    lead to where is the question? that is not a train I am ready to board!
     
  12. Not Amused

    Not Amused New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2008
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Lib smasher.

    I ask you the same question. I also ask you another one and I am positive you will become just as evasive as Obama.

    I do not personally agree with any abortion after the first trimester on ethical grounds only ( I do not feel we have enough knowledge of the human body/mind, to ascertain without doubt, that an embryo/foetus over 12 weeks gestation does not feel pain, or lacks any thought process) . I am not religious and so try to view the subject matter logically and rationally (any other way is wholly flawed ).

    Let us just say for arguments sake, we give an embryo/foetus the rights I am assuming (correct me if I am wrong) you yourself wish for and support.

    What then exactly, are you going to do with the forty million unwanted children resulting from such a change in the present laws?

    I have no personal interest regarding the investiture of Obama, Mc Cain or any other American politician, but how exactly can you honestly expect Obama, or anyone else to have a tangible and practicable answer to the problem of abortion?
     
  13. BigRob

    BigRob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2007
    Messages:
    7,366
    Likes Received:
    314
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    USA
    Understand that the lawyers who tried Roe V Wade have now admitted that they simply made up facts about back alley abortion numbers and the person they tried the case for is now pro-life.

    Talk about people dying based on a lie. 40 million babies die and no one cares, but we go to war based on a "lie" and everyone is up in arms.

    Life starts at conception.
     
  14. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2008
    Messages:
    11,790
    Likes Received:
    257
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    The people's republic of Eugene
    Hey Rob, Hi



    Ah good point, but only for the reasonable..... With the far far left a babies life means nothing but a man who raped and murdered a baby and is on death row, their life is very valuable.
     
  15. Libsmasher

    Libsmasher New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2008
    Messages:
    3,151
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    First, let's get my position on abortion clear: I am an agnostic, and none of my opinion about abortion is or ever has been informed by religious doctrine. The first trimester cutoff, and other arbitrary "magic numbers" are UTTERLY devoid of any basis in science or ethics. I have said before that there should be a real national debate - I emphasize "REAL" - based on the following two questions:

    1. What IS human life?
    2. When does it begin?

    This should involve biologists, medical researchers, philosophers, and other potentially competent people to answer these questions. Religious and ideological assertions of any kind ("A woman has a right to choose") are disallowed.

    This REAL debate has NEVER occurred, because any possibility for it was cut short with Roe v. Wade, a judicial fiat that not only was not based on any real scientific or philosophical competence, it was also hignly flawed in the realm where the justices of the USSC were SUPPOSED to know what they were doing, the U.S. Constitution. There HAS been a lot of a posteriori pseudo-scientific justification.

    Since such a resolution of the real issues has NOT yet taken place, my position is the following: since it is a reasonable hypothesis (after all, nobody doubts that fetuses at least BECOME live human beings) that abortion DOES kill a human being, then until the REAL debate takes place and the issues are resolved, which may even be resolved in favor of the pro-abortionists, prudent policy is that abortions be prohibited, and society take on the responsibility of unwanted children. Meantime, society effect those policies that decrease the number of unwanted children conceived.

    Notice there is a feedback effect with legalized abortion - if abortions are readily available, and feminists have convinced women that fetuses are just a blob of cells, than many more women become pregnant with unwanted fetuses, since there is not much negative consequence for doing so.

    Also note that there used to be a HUGE number of adoptions in this country - the number of adoptions fell way off after abortion came on the scene - the babies that would have been adopted were never born.

    Here in essence is Obama's vs my position:

    Obama:
    "I'm for abortion, but I can't justify why I would support it."

    Me:
    "I don't know whether abortion is killing a live humen being or not, so the safe course is to prohibit it until it is determined whether or not abortion is the killing of a live human being."
     
Loading...

Share This Page