Eliminating Government Unions..It's about time

[dogtowner]

As for negotiating salaries, you have that right, too, except that individuals can't negotiate salaries effectively. It takes a group to stand up to management and demand just compensation. Should the teachers in Wisconsin take a 20% cut, some of them will try to leave. In good times, they would leave. Now, with unemployment being acknowledged to be nearly 10% and most likely nearly double that in reality, not many are going to be able to change jobs now.

Is it just that the teacher that DOES put in all those hours outside the classroom and dos succeed with their kids gets the same salary as the one who does not and fails theirs ?

The notion of standing up to the man is foolish in this day and age as laws prevent the abuses that unions were originally formed to address.

Unions are dinosaurs who onl exist still in government as the real world has already noticed that the ice age has killed them.

 

[PLC1]

s it just that the teacher that DOES put in all those hours outside the classroom and dos succeed with their kids gets the same salary as the one who does not and fails theirs ?

That is a problem. So, how are those teachers who go the extra mile and produce a good learning environment going to be recognized? The administration generally has no idea who is effective and who isn't, the school board is mostly there out of either a sense of duty or a need to be a part of school health insurance, and the county and state bureaucracies have no clue about anything. Test scores are mostly bogus, and have already been over used as indicators of academic excellence.

The notion of standing up to the man is foolish in this day and age as laws prevent the abuses that unions were originally formed to address.

Yes, laws that unions have backed and fought for, but those laws still need a watchdog to keep them strong.

Unions are dinosaurs who onl exist still in government as the real world has already noticed that the ice age has killed them.

No, there are some strong unions still in the private sector as well. Unfortunately, you are partly correct, as both the middle class and the union worker seem to be on the decline. There is a correlation there, and could even be a cause and effect relationship.

 

[dogtowner]

That is a problem. So, how are those teachers who go the extra mile and produce a good learning environment going to be recognized? The administration generally has no idea who is effective and who isn't, the school board is mostly there out of either a sense of duty or a need to be a part of school health insurance, and the county and state bureaucracies have no clue about anything. Test scores are mostly bogus, and have already been over used as indicators of academic excellence.

HAve to disagree strongly with you there hoss. Test scores are all you have left if you subtract direct management for te evaluation process as the unions have seen to.

Yes, laws that unions have backed and fought for, but those laws still need a watchdog to keep them strong.

No you don't that's the job of the judicial branch. Same as for all other laws. Even if that were the case, its not what they unions do. The Labor relations board et al accomplish this needless function.

No, there are some strong unions still in the private sector as well. Unfortunately, you are partly correct, as both the middle class and the union worker seem to be on the decline. There is a correlation there, and could even be a cause and effect relationship.

Whatever unions remain are a shadow of what they were. By killing the golden geese they insured a form of bubble on compensatio0n levels that was unsustainable and so collapsed. Cause and effect indeed.

 

[PLC1]

HAve to disagree strongly with you there hoss. Test scores are all you have left if you subtract direct management for te evaluation process as the unions have seen to.

I thought you would.

If sucking up to the administration becomes the way to get higher salaries, teachers will suck up to the administration. Doing so won't result in more learning, however.

Did you know that many school administrators have no real teaching experience?

No you don't that's the job of the judicial branch. Same as for all other laws. Even if that were the case, its not what they unions do. The Labor relations board et al accomplish this needless function.

Needless? Hardly needless, and hardly something to be left to a government entity.

Whatever unions remain are a shadow of what they were. By killing the golden geese they insured a form of bubble on compensatio0n levels that was unsustainable and so collapsed. Cause and effect indeed.

The cause is free trade. The effect is not only cheaper goods, but what once were good jobs going to countries where there are no unions, no labor laws, no environmental laws. It's a trade off.

 

[GenSeneca]

It's not about fleecing anyone. The government has its representative, and the employees have theirs.

That government rep doesn't pay the bill and he's not directly accountable to the taxpayers he puts on the hook, so the taxpayers seem to be the ones without a representative.

 

[PLC1]

That government rep doesn't pay the bill and he's not directly accountable to the taxpayers he puts on the hook, so the taxpayers seem to be the ones without a representative.

He's accountable when the budget doesn't balance due to excessive concessions. In the case of the school superintendent (my area of familiarity), he is responsible to the school board to make sure that the district stays in the black. How much money the district has in the first place depends on the state legislature in the case of California, or on local property taxpayers in many other places. Excessive concessions to the union don't translate into higher taxes, but into the school district (or I suppose other entities as well) going into the red, which normally results in the superintendent joining the unemployed.

 

[Apathy]

Hey dont hate on teachers. Some of them are really nice people.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

They are public sector employees and their pension s are paid by taxpayer funds.

Get your head out of your a##.

They were paying a symbolic 0.2% of their wages to their pensions. Now they will pay 5.8%.

They were paying about 6% of their wages for healthcare. Now they will be paying about 12%.

This is life. the public sector pays far more for their 401K and health insurance. They still will be.

This is what happens when business isn't good and budgets are broken.

facts do matter
doug

so your mad that they negotiated a good deal for there people ...how horrible..And then when needed they are willing to reduce how good that deal is to help the state finances....at the same time the same people asking for them to pay more...are giving tax breaks to others...

Its like when the airlines asked pilots and flight attendants to take huge pay cuts to help the airline...and they did...and the company did well...as reward...the top executives who did gave them self a big raise .

Its sad, some on the right like to yell about how liberals want to punish and hate people for being rich and successful...those same people cry about middle class workers getting anything positive.

The rich are getting richer evry year, the poor and the middle class get less and less each year...and they cry only about the plight of the richest. Its class war...but only they are fighting for the other class and not there own.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

That government rep doesn't pay the bill and he's not directly accountable to the taxpayers he puts on the hook, so the taxpayers seem to be the ones without a representative.

yes, elected officials have no say what so ever in working with the unions on deals...none...They just send some random guy in and he is able to just give the Unions what ever he or she personally feels like it, thats how it works right?

But I guess the issue is...you elect people who don't do there jobs, and the teachers should have to pay for the fact they do a good job asking getting what they want?

We want a smart educated population...but god help us if we want to give even decent pay to those who are most responsible for it. I made about the same as a Starting teacher ...working part time at Sears....And as someone with freinds who are teachers...you know what they are doing half the time when not at school working? they are at home..grading tests, reading papers,and working.

 

[Rick]

I wish it were that easy. You know me from my posts and you can be sure that could my wife have any influence in changing the nature of the union she is a part of we would. It is rigged so that we don't even know the positions of the candidates and the positions that are even mentioned never include any sort of mention of anything political one way or another. She has been threatened by union reps for making even the most innocuous comments and requesting information about political standpoints would be career suicide.

Yes, there ARE people like her. But the MAJORITY of the rank and file could change it if they wanted to.

Every teacher I know (quite a lot) works well beyond the 9 months.

Fo any significant period past the 9 months, such work is vouluntary and to make more money, in the vast majority of cases.

Teachers do get benefits that are better than the private sector on average.

In some states, they get FARRRRRRRRRRR better benefits.

 

[Rick]

Having taught for many years, I can second what you say about teachers and the time that they put in. Teaching only looks like an easy job when you're on the outside looking in. Try it, and you quickly find out that it is much more difficult than it appears.

I've taught as an adjunct at community colleges for about 15 years. Before that, I was a TA in grad school with full responsibility for lectures for often absent professors for classes of up to 300 students.

BOOM!


Ooo, what was that noise? Oh yeah, it was your "experience" argument crashing into the ground.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I've taught as an adjunct at community colleges for about 15 years. Before that, I was a TA in grad school with full responsibility for lectures for often absent professors for classes of up to 300 students.

BOOM!


Ooo, what was that noise? Oh yeah, it was your "experience" argument crashing into the ground.

so when are you going to be sending a check back to the taxpayers for how much you ripped them off then?

 

[dogtowner]

I thought you would.

If sucking up to the administration becomes the way to get higher salaries, teachers will suck up to the administration. Doing so won't result in more learning, however.

Did you know that many school administrators have no real teaching experience?

Sucking up ? No, I'm talking about performing. And it does not take teaching experience to see if students are learning or not.

Needless? Hardly needless, and hardly something to be left to a government entity.

Well the unions aren't even pretending to do this but its true that government regulators are as useless as it gets. But anyone can bring suit and there are a lot of lawyers happy to make a buck. In fact the percentage of such ads in relation to personal injury arund here is growing a lot.

The cause is free trade. The effect is not only cheaper goods, but what once were good jobs going to countries where there are no unions, no labor laws, no environmental laws. It's a trade off.

As product becomes commodity the manufacturer always heads to the low cost provider. That was America once upon a time. To think one's low skill job will pay too much forever is foolish.

 

[Dr.Who]

Having taught for many years, I can second what you say about teachers and the time that they put in. Teaching only looks like an easy job when you're on the outside looking in. Try it, and you quickly find out that it is much more difficult than it appears.

As for negotiating salaries, you have that right, too, except that individuals can't negotiate salaries effectively. It takes a group to stand up to management and demand just compensation. Should the teachers in Wisconsin take a 20% cut, some of them will try to leave. In good times, they would leave. Now, with unemployment being acknowledged to be nearly 10% and most likely nearly double that in reality, not many are going to be able to change jobs now.

And I am all for people being able to band together to negotiate more effectively. I am not for their group getting any special laws to give them a competitive advantage, I am not for them being able to coerce others to join their group or being able to collect dues from people who don't want to pay them.

 

[Dr.Who]

Yes, there ARE people like her. But the MAJORITY of the rank and file could change it if they wanted to.



Fo any significant period past the 9 months, such work is vouluntary and to make more money, in the vast majority of cases.



In some states, they get FARRRRRRRRRRR better benefits.

Most teachers are liberal - it is true.

Extra work is voluntary but it is not paid.

I hve no doubt that in some states they fair far better than their private sector counterparts.

Changes do need to be made I just hope that are reasoned and rational and not reactionary. But governments tend to make the reactionary changes.