You and people with like minds put them in that hole..and even though you may not see it, the people in control of the liberal party want to keep them there..like i said..The greatest racial disrespect you can show anybody is to create a system of power by which you tell them they can't make it on their own..There is no way with a straight face you can argue whats been done for the blacks has worked...Please don't preach to me about helping the poor..For the past ten years half my time is spent doing just that..It's easy to talk the talk..but if you really want to help..CHANGE THIS SYSTEM..IT'S NOT WORKING..There is no room for racism in our society...
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- Thread starter bobbyjimmy
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bobby..We have to start telling them they can,because they can..and when they show they want it white or black..GIVE THEM ALL THE HELP THEY NEED..But no matter who it is..THEY HAVE TO EARN IT, because only then will they start feeling better about themselves..The policies of the left are not and will not work and that is a fact we can all see...you seem like a smart guy,how can you not see this?
Show me where liberal policies have worked for blacks..no liberal can debate me on the democratic party being the slave master without an ad hominem attack or some other absurd fallacy... They don't have a single original thought; it is all sound bytes and clipped phrases... nothing I said is racsist and I believe all men are created equal and should be treated that way.. period!
GenSeneca
Well-Known Member
It's immoral to initiate the use of force against others.
The basic "moral" principle you cite is in direct contradiction to the moral principle I just stated. Perhaps, if you are bored with the others, you could address this contradiction and/or explain your perception of the moral principle behind initiating force against others. Clearly it is on this moral point that our divergence on the topic begins and that would seem to be a rational place to start a civilized conversation.
bobbyjimmy
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I have no idea what you mean by that. "We have to start telling them they can,because they can..and when they show they want it white or black..GIVE THEM ALL THE HELP THEY NEED.." what the heck does that even mean? Every time you guys spout some opinion out, I take the time to respond intelligently. Every time I give you a rational argument, you respond with the same mantra over and over... the liberals are to blame for everything... the government's socialist policies have ruined america... blah blah blah despite my having already debunked these myths. Look at the presidents on the last 40 years. How many of them were Republicans? Nixon, Ford, Reagan x2, Bush, Bush II x2 versus Carter, Clinton x2, and Obama x2. Carter you could maybe claim was progressive and liberal. Clinton? Obama? Yeah, right. Warmongers who gave the rich an open field to plunder, hardly a liberal point of view. Yet somehow the liberals are to blame, even though they haven't been running the show most of the time.
Genuine liberals are not putting black people in any hole. It's pretty simple- ask black people why they're in the mess they're in. The answer isn't that tough. I just explained it to you. Hundreds of years of being squashed only to have ignorant people like you claim none of that matters, and that they should get off their ass and work. Liberals aren't making up excuses for why they should remain where they are- they are providing concrete reasons so that we can then work to get them out of that spot. And it HAS worked- in 1960, only 20% of blacks had completed high school. By 1980 this rose to 50%, and just a few years ago (2006) 86% of blacks in their 20's had completed high school. (this info from the book "Race Struggles" which is full of actual statistics you might want to discover.) I don't know what your plan is to help underprivileged folks, but in my version of reality, educating them is step one. Even though black people are still paid less for doing the exact same job (The Economic and Educational State of Black Americans in the 21st Century: Should We be Optimistic or Concerned? by Angel L. Harris- full of many facts you also might want to learn) thanks to the civil rights movement and subsequent efforts by (gasp-) liberal, progressive groups, you will find black people working any and every career imaginable, unlike their situation in your beloved 1950's. We still have much to work on, but to say that they are "worse off" now than they were in the 50's is absolutely idiotic. And to ignore the reasons that brought black folks into the mess that they're in shows a profound ignorance on your part for understanding basic human nature.
But don't let actual facts get in the way of your beliefs, of course. Keep blaming the nonexistent liberal governments of the last half a century for everything.
bobbyjimmy
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I'll believe you believe that if you tell me you are against having a police force, an army, or any other body that enFORCES any laws, rules, regulations or policies of anyone. Next time I get a speeding ticket I'll give you a call to protest the government on moral grounds.
Gipper
Well-Known Member
You apparently, by that post, have no idea what is moral and immoral. Do you think there is a difference between the two words or is there NO morality or immorality?
Using government force to force me to pay for the care of others is immoral. Using police to enforce the laws of a civil and moral society, is moral and just. But then, you probably think I am a law breaker deserving of arrest, for not wanting government to take my property and give it to others.
Gipper
Well-Known Member
Excellent column. The great Dr. Sowell speaks the truth, but amazingly the Left does not care. I thought these statements from his column clearly explain the liberal mindset. Liberals are blind to reality, facts, and history. Their ideology trumps all.
The black family survived centuries of slavery and generations of Jim Crow, but it has disintegrated in the wake of the liberals' expansion of the welfare state. Most black children grew up in homes with two parents during all that time but most grow up with only one parent today.
liberals take positions that make them look good and feel good — and show very little interest in the actual consequences for others, even when liberal policies are leaving havoc in their wake.
Many liberal ideas about race sound plausible, and it is understandable that these ideas might have been attractive 50 years ago. What is not understandable is how so many liberals can blindly ignore 50 years of evidence to the contrary since then.
bobbyjimmy
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No, I just think you're being illogical. If you want to explain why it's okay to use force in one situation and not in another, go ahead. But if you're making the black and white statement "It's immoral to initiate the use of force against others" then you'd better be able to back it up. Things aren't true just because you say so. The government can't force you to pay your taxes, but the government can force you to not drive fast... where's the moral line there? I see a society wanting to taking care of each other as a much stronger moral argument than making sure people don't drive faster than an arbitrary speed limit, which carries no moral weight whatsoever. Yet you're claiming the reverse. So back up your argument with some logic, or risk sounding like a buffoon.
Gipper
Well-Known Member
Okay. This is most instructive.
Am I, a law abiding citizen, no different in your eyes than a serial killer? You see the police are responsible for apprehending murders and those who commit crimes. Are they also required to apprehend law abiding citizens?
There is a difference. Do you see it?
I am for a society that takes care of it's less fortunate. But you want the government to use force, to take my property by force, to help the less fortunate (actually "help" is not accurate, since welfare is a horrendous failure, but libs cling to its good intentions and ignore its actual affects).
Please read Thomas Sowell's column and let me know your thoughts on it.
bobbyjimmy
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Thomas Sowell's thoughts have nothing to do with this. Let's stick to the topic, unless you're saying you don't understand your own beliefs and require Mr. Sowell to explain them for you. GenSeneca made a very clear, declarative statement which you are defending. I'm asking either one of you to back it up with logic. You, a serial killer, it doesn't matter who we're talking about- morals are absolute and unchanging regardless of who we're talking about. The argument against a government system that affords health care to everyone, as I am understanding you, is that it is immoral because no one has the right to use force on anyone (those are GenSeneca's words.) If this is true, then it follows that the concept of both a police force and an army is also immoral. That's just basic logic. So either your original assertion is wrong (in which case, say so) or you better have a logical, rational argument that somehow explains this discrepancy... or, you do genuinely believe that we should have no police or army, which is actually the most defensible position out of these 3 choices, as it is consistent with the belief that no one has the right to use force on anyone. Which would make you an anarchist, which is fine with me. I just want you to be logical and consistent.
You said ask some blacks what They think..So I did
by Dr. Boyce Watkins
You hear it all the time from old-school types: How black families were more secure before integration, we had more black-owned businesses, black children valued education, HBCUs were stronger, etc. There are some who speak as if the status of black America has worsened after integration, rather than gotten better. Could this be true?
I decided to take this question to the readers of my Facebook page to determine what others think about the matter. You can read their thoughts below. My take? Integration is a mixed bag. Most of us will always give thanks to Dr. King and others who had the courage to fight for us to have equal rights. But there is something wrong with a world in which black people feel that they must be sitting next to white people in order to feel entirely human.
Notice that whites weren’t fighting to get to our lunch counters, to move into our neighborhoods or to attend our schools, they still aren’t. But we’ve always felt that white is right and that getting their validation and acceptance was the key to elevating our own self-worth, when the truth is that we were worthy all along. It is self-sufficiency that builds strength, not unconditional assimilation. That is my two cents.
And I quote" It is self-sufficiency that builds strength"
Ryan O. Adams We are worse off as a group. We don’t speak to one another. We don’t patronize Black-owned businesses. We have become divided and subdivided along lines of class, education, and income. Segregation put us all under the same tent. Nearly every blue-eyed man or woman was the enemy. We were forced to rely on each other. With the exception of the handful of fair-skinned Negroes who could pass for White, all of our nuts were on the chopping block. It didn’t matter if you had a PhD or a GED, your seat was in the back of the bus. Our people were kidnapped, beaten, tortured, and murdered. Our homes and churches were bombed. I would hate to think that all of that bloodshed was for the right to sit next to a white man and have a slice of apple pie at a lunch counter. African-Americans spent $9.4 BILLION on alcohol, tobacco, and entertainment in 2010. We hate each other’s guts, but we sure love to party (CBC Legislative weekend foolishness). We have the resources to save ourselves. The resources are in our wallets and bank accounts. The unintended outcomes of integration are worse than segregation. How are we going to fix this mess? Here’s a clue…the solution isn’t in Washington! Having a man of color in the White House might FEEL good, but that sure won’t fill our stomachs and our bank accounts.
C’Lee White Better. If segregation equalled both parties being equally supported in everything then I could possibly say, ” I vote for segregation.” It was not. And not only physically was it not supported, mentally/spiritually it was not either. Just by separating a group of people and giving them better access to things it caused them to believe (and some still holds these beliefs) that they are better. We may never (on this side of life) get to the point where we are 100% better off now. But it is far from being separated and treated less than human.
Bob Lee Give me my ‘sheep skin’ on this one. America is nothing more than a ‘make shift’ country and extension of your united european corporations. ‘Integration’ is nothing more “than a fleeting illusion to be pursued, but never attained” while.. everywhere is War! (BMW from the speech by Emperor Ras Rafari). A nation such as ours that literally suffered complete and total domination by these people, would never reach its full potential under their auspices.
Daniel Rosario You know the answer to this. Clearly, Blacks performed better under segregation. More Black inventors and scientist. Also, diversity creates conflict and ultimately a pressure to change one’s identity in order to be accepted.
Bottom Line ...Here is the difference. I as a conservative just want to make things better for ALL people. This will happen by setting the stage for people to succeed according to their own drive. This does not sit well with some demographic subsections.Democrats/liberals campaign by going to different segments of the population, promising *them* that government will take care of them at the expense of others. This wins votes but is impossible to deliver on.
One of the most prominent senators in this party once said of the racist Ku Klux Klan: ''The Klan is needed today as never before, and I am anxious to see its rebirth'' in his home state. This same politician said that he would never go to war ''with a Negro by my side. Rather, I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongers, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds.''
The chief spokesman of this party paid tribute to his political mentors, both of whom were hard-line Southern segregationists. A political cartoonist for this party referred to National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice as a ''house nigger.''
This party has systematically destroyed black families and culture through policies that keep blacks dependent on government support while stifling the growth of the black middle class.
The party? Democrat. Those cited above? Sen. Robert Byrd of West Virginia, former President Bill Clinton, and virulent cartoonist Ted Rall of the liberal newspaper, The Washington Post.
One of the wonders of American politics has been the ability of Democrats to portray Republicans as racist, even as they support racial quotas in our colleges and universities, deny black parents the ability to take their children out of horrendous big-city schools through vouchers, and make disgusting TV commercials such as the one by the bigoted and racist NAACP blaming President Bush for the brutal killing of a black man in Texas.
Jesse Jackson, one of the left's most prominent spokesmen, called New York ''Hymietown,'' and San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown once boasted that ''We beat those white boys..'' (Of course, there was no media outcry over these bigoted statements. No liberal media bias here!)
The education policies of the left have decimated our public school system, particularly in big cities such as Washington, D.C., where per-student spending is among the highest in the country and the academic performance of students the lowest.
And is it not interesting that while they deny poor black families access to vouchers to allow their children to receive a decent education, liberal politicians send their own children to private schools? It seems that they do believe in school choice--for those who can afford it.
It was not conservatives but liberals who attempted to limit the number of Asians admitted into the University of California system, because through hard work and parental support they were disproportionately represented in relation to the population in general.
If you would like to be a mail carrier or firefighter or police officer, you should know that conservatives believe your ability to do so should be based on character and merit--while those on the left believe it should be based on the color of your skin.
And when it comes time to vote, remember this: It was Republicans who enabled passage of civil rights legislation--more Democrats than Republicans voted against it. Among the opponents: Sen. Albert Gore, Sr., of Tennessee, father of last election's Democrat presidential candidate Al Gore.
The Democrat Party is jammed top to bottom with bigots, outright racists, and race hustlers like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Do you really want to put more of these guys into power?
I think that establishes that there is something to discuss. So let us do so:
The chief spokesman of this party paid tribute to his political mentors, both of whom were hard-line Southern segregationists. A political cartoonist for this party referred to National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice as a ''house nigger.''
This party has systematically destroyed black families and culture through policies that keep blacks dependent on government support while stifling the growth of the black middle class.
The party? Democrat. Those cited above? Sen. Robert Byrd of West Virginia, former President Bill Clinton, and virulent cartoonist Ted Rall of the liberal newspaper, The Washington Post.
One of the wonders of American politics has been the ability of Democrats to portray Republicans as racist, even as they support racial quotas in our colleges and universities, deny black parents the ability to take their children out of horrendous big-city schools through vouchers, and make disgusting TV commercials such as the one by the bigoted and racist NAACP blaming President Bush for the brutal killing of a black man in Texas.
Jesse Jackson, one of the left's most prominent spokesmen, called New York ''Hymietown,'' and San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown once boasted that ''We beat those white boys..'' (Of course, there was no media outcry over these bigoted statements. No liberal media bias here!)
The education policies of the left have decimated our public school system, particularly in big cities such as Washington, D.C., where per-student spending is among the highest in the country and the academic performance of students the lowest.
And is it not interesting that while they deny poor black families access to vouchers to allow their children to receive a decent education, liberal politicians send their own children to private schools? It seems that they do believe in school choice--for those who can afford it.
It was not conservatives but liberals who attempted to limit the number of Asians admitted into the University of California system, because through hard work and parental support they were disproportionately represented in relation to the population in general.
If you would like to be a mail carrier or firefighter or police officer, you should know that conservatives believe your ability to do so should be based on character and merit--while those on the left believe it should be based on the color of your skin.
And when it comes time to vote, remember this: It was Republicans who enabled passage of civil rights legislation--more Democrats than Republicans voted against it. Among the opponents: Sen. Albert Gore, Sr., of Tennessee, father of last election's Democrat presidential candidate Al Gore.
The Democrat Party is jammed top to bottom with bigots, outright racists, and race hustlers like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Do you really want to put more of these guys into power?
I think that establishes that there is something to discuss. So let us do so:
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by Dennis Campbell in the run-up to the 2004 U.S. Presidential election:
