Here's what socialized healthcare will become in the U.S.

[The Scotsman]

Get rid of waste, and beurocracy and you will be fixing the problem to obtain cost effective health care.

........spot on....... that's one of the main issues

 

[Andy]

I am lucky then

I hate doctors and only go to them to shut other people up who think we all need to see a doctor for everything.

I recently dislocated the cartage in my rib and tore the muscle, I knew I did and I knew how to treat it but my family and everyone at worked nagged me till I went to the doctor. The doctor told me exactly what I already knew and the cure was exactly what I was already doing.

So this new health care will get everyone off my back when I get sick because I know how to take care of myself and I don’t care to see a doctor for it. But most people who like to go to the doctor for every ingrown toenail will not be very happy with Obama care.

I do wish though there were at least two systems. Obama care for those far too stupid to manage on their own with all of the rules you list.

And what we already have for those who don’t want the kind of health care that Obama offers.


I am afraid we will all get stuck with obama care and my daughters needs wont be met because someone else decided it was to expensive or unnecessary.

I'd say we already have two systems. The private insurance providers, and Medicare. The results will be similar if we make it universal. Namely, the government system will not pay the total cost of health care, and therefore, hospitals are raising their rates on private insurance users, to cover (read subsidize) the government program.

In other words, you right now, if you have health insurance, are subsidizing the government medicare system. As in, you are paying a tax, on top of your medicare payroll tax, to subsidize the system. Aren't you glad?

Further, there will never be an official two-tier system for health care. The reason is because the whole complaint with health care is... it's unequal. Installing a two-tier system defeats the purpose.

I say officially because in reality there's always a two-tier system. The Canadians that can afford to come to the US, and pay for their own health care, do so. The ones that can't are left to die in waiting rooms. This is why people in the UK fly to India 'pay-for-service' hospitals while their poorer countrymen die in waiting rooms. So there's always a two-tier system in one way or another.

 

[The Scotsman]

Saying doctors are not perfect, is a pretty lame excuse in my mind. I have a choice of a dozen dentists in this area, that will treat me like a valued customer. They are begging to have the chance to get to be my dentist, because they want my business.

....same here! What's your point? Dentists in the UK offer both Private and NHS treatment all I do is phone up the receptionist and ask for an appointment ......... if they're full I go somewhere else.....where's the problem?

 

[Andy]

.........they're posted out of ignorance because its not understood and perhaps he's frightened of the unknown, I don't know the reason but again that's fine its an oppinion. But the reality is that anybody and everybody has access to a first class world renowned medical service in the UK. As I say its not perfect nothing is but having lived in many countries round the world it comes second to the German system which is one of the best in the world.

I was reading from an actual patient in the UK that was told by a dozen different medical providers, they are not taking any new NHS patients.

How is that me being afraid? Perhaps the patient who was told they couldn't get treatment was afraid? Maybe they were a bit right in being afraid?

Lung patients 'condemned to death as NHS withdraws their too expensive drugs'

Hundreds of patients with a rare lung disease will be sentenced to death by plans to stop doctors prescribing a range of drugs on the NHS, it was claimed last night.

Campaigners have condemned proposals by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence to withdraw the drugs because they are too expensive.

What's the point? Why should I be scared? It's your people that are dying.

See this is what I don't get about people who support socialized systems. I have personally posted about a dozen articles and stories about how the UK NHS system has repeatedly failed and people have died. I suggest this is documented evidence of my point. Yet you want to claim that no, no, I'm just scared and ignorant?

What exactly does it take for you to figure out that your system is killing people? Do you have to wait until you, yourself are caught in a life threatening illness, and are stuck on a waiting list?

Average NHS waiting times have RISEN under Labour - despite £90bn investment

Hospital waiting times are longer than under the Conservatives, despite £90billion being ploughed into the health service this year alone.

The average wait for treatment in hospital is now 49 days, up from 41 days in 1997, the year Labour took power with a promise to "save the NHS".

What am I making up? From 1997, the NHS budget went from £37 Billion, to £90 Billion, and what do they have to show for it? Longer waits.

This is the top quality care? This is the benefits of a socialized system?

 

[Andy]

........spot on....... that's one of the main issues

But as long as health care is in control of government, there will always be waste and bureaucracy. That is the whole point the right-side is making. Can you name for me, just one government run program, that didn't have any waste or bureaucracy?

 

[Andy]

....same here! What's your point? Dentists in the UK offer both Private and NHS treatment all I do is phone up the receptionist and ask for an appointment ......... if they're full I go somewhere else.....where's the problem?

Let's read the story straight from the UK again... shall we?

Diane Hunter, 45, described how she became so exasperated after two years of toothache she opted for a DIY option.

"In the end I just got really drunk and got a friend to pull it out with a pair of big pliers," she told the Bradford Telegraph and Argus.

"There was a lots of blood but I just needed the tooth out - it was causing me great pain and it still is."

Really? She should have called you up, and had you phone up a dentist for her perhaps, since she couldn't find one?

I had to pull out my own teeth, woman tells Blair

Valerie Holsworth would have liked to have had her teeth extracted professionally but she could not get an NHS appointment.

“It takes time. I cannot force them to come from the private sector back into the NHS.” -Tony Blair

Funny, in a private free-market, dentists would want to come provide service in order to make money... hey wait, that's a bit like what Tony said.

A grandmother performed her own tooth extractions in despair after being turned away by 12 dentists.

Elizabeth Green, 76, was in agony with two front teeth and after a fruitless search for an NHS practitioner, resorted to DIY.

Her case is the latest of many to highlight the dwindling availability of NHS dental treatment.

Why were the dentists not begging to have her come be a patient? She went to 12 different dentists and couldn't find anyone to help her? Why is that Scotsmen? If you have an explanation, I'd love to hear it.

Labour's pledge to improve NHS dentistry lies in tatters today after figures revealed the number of people seeing a dentist has plummeted by 1.2million in the past two years.

Wow... in two years the number of patients seeing a dentist, DROPPED by ONE POINT TWO MILLION! Now let's think this through. In a growing population, what are statistical possibilities that they simply are having fewer teeth problems? Hint: Zero. So... what are the possibilities that government intervention has made dentistry to NHS patients unprofitable, and therefore fewer dentists are available?

I'll let you figure that out that one.

 

[The Scotsman]

..........and no doubt lots more besides. Let's examine the myth of your post on Valerie Holsworth pulling out here own teeth and delve into the facts................

The television companies like them because, if the researchers have done their jobs properly, there will always be a Holsworth in the audience, someone with a weird or horrible story to tell — and thus front-page headlines the next day. So it was with Holsworth’s recourse to the pliers.

I spoke to Holsworth on the telephone a couple of days after her remarkable television debut. Exactly how many teeth did you pull out, I asked her? “Seven,” she said. “For four of them, I just used my fingers and some tissues. But the other three were fastened more firmly to my gum, so I had to use my husband’s pliers.”

Yow. Didn’t that hurt? Wasn’t there lots of blood? “Surprisingly little blood,” said Holsworth matter-of-factly. “I have a gum disease called pyorrhoea where the teeth come away from the gums quite easily.”

I see. Shouldn’t you try to cure the pyorrhoea, rather than wrench all of your teeth out? It’s caused by vitamin deficiency, isn’t it? Bad diet and so on? “I don’t know. Nobody will tell me. Thing is, I can’t eat any apples because my teeth will end up stuck in them. And I’ve only got 10 left. Teeth, not apples.”

You see Andy you've fallen for the politics of Health Care in the UK rather then the reality there is a gulf of difference between politically motivated journalists and what actually exists "on the street" as it were. You and others don't understand or don't want to understand the NHS, how it works or what it does you have this political dogma which is entrenched within your comfort zone and nothing can shake you out of that. I accept that its okay... that's what we all do but just remember their are always political agendas. The NHS is the battleground of the Conservative and Labour parties during election times and stories are invented and planted to prove a negative.

Holsworth is merely one of the latest in a line of “ordinary people” thrust upwards by journalists or politicians into the front line of this strange general election campaign. Holsworth’s rotting teeth have purported to inform us about the “real” state of NHS dentistry.

As I've said our NHS is not perfect but you have to seperate fact from fiction, reality from a political agenda.

 

[The Scotsman]

Oh by the way Andy..........Mrs. Holsworth was a staunch supporter of Tony Blair and the Labour Party but unfortunately for her she lived off a diet of pizzas and cheeseburgers and soft drinks...........

 

[Andy]

You see Andy you've fallen for the politics of Health Care in the UK rather then the reality there is a gulf of difference between politically motivated journalists and what actually exists "on the street" as it were. You and others don't understand or don't want to understand the NHS, how it works or what it does you have this political dogma which is entrenched within your comfort zone and nothing can shake you out of that. I accept that its okay... that's what we all do but just remember their are always political agendas. The NHS is the battleground of the Conservative and Labour parties during election times and stories are invented and planted to prove a negative.

Huh? Your own post proved my point completely. Let's read her statement again.

Shouldn’t you try to cure the pyorrhoea, rather than wrench all of your teeth out? It’s caused by vitamin deficiency, isn’t it? Bad diet and so on? “I don’t know. Nobody will tell me..."

Stop... She doesn't know because no one will tell her anything. Why? Because she can't get to see a dentist. Why? Because they all told her they are not taking NHS patients.

Duh.... That makes my whole point. If she could have seen a dentist, then one might have told her how to deal with the gum disease.

Even more ironic... the people here in the US justify socialized care by claiming that having it will allow people to get preventative care, to stop this very situation from happening. Yet clearly your system isn't providing preventative care, or immediate care.

Look, if this was an isolated incident, then maybe you'd have a point. The problem is it isn't isolated. The number of people receiving dental care dropped by 1.2 Million. That's not "isolated". That isn't one bad doctor somewhere removing the wrong organ. That's 1.2 million people in the UK that can't find dentists.

Around 3 million people have resorted to DIY dentistry, with a further 3 million knowing someone else that has, according to new research

So again... what is your defense?

 

[Andy]

Oh by the way Andy..........Mrs. Holsworth was a staunch supporter of Tony Blair and the Labour Party but unfortunately for her she lived off a diet of pizzas and cheeseburgers and soft drinks...........

Not relevant. A person can support a bad system, that doesn't make the system less bad. There were people in the Soviet Union that supported Stalin, that didn't change the fact the system failed, million died, and most lived in poverty.

Nor does her diet make any difference. I can eat my self sick with donuts and fried onion rings, that doesn't mean I won't be able to find a dentist within the hour that can help me with a tooth.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

There are a lot of stories that get linked on this site in order to prove a negative, which is fine! However, until you have experienced it first hand then its meaningless. For example Andy posts comments like this........

.........they're posted out of ignorance because its not understood and perhaps he's frightened of the unknown, I don't know the reason.....

The Reason is a steady-diet of FEAR, From BUSHCO.​

"That is because the Bush administration has in its arsenal one very potent weapon—and one weapon only—which it has repeatedly used: fear.​

Our very survival is at risk, we are told. We face an enemy unlike any we have seen before, more powerful than anything we have previously encountered. President Bush is devoted to protecting us from the terrorists. We have to invade and occupy Iraq because the terrorists will kill us all if we do not. We must allow the president to incarcerate American citizens without due process, employ torture as a state-sanctioned weapon, eavesdrop on our private conversations, and even violate the law, because the terrorists are so evil and so dangerous that we cannot have any limits on the power of the president if we want him to protect us from the dangers in the world.

It is that deeply irrational, fear-driven view of the world that has been used to convince Americans to acquiesce to the administration’s excesses and abuses of power. And it is not difficult to understand why it works. After all, if it really were the case that terrorism constituted the sort of imminent, civilization-ending threat the administration has spent the last four years drumming into everyone’s head, then it might be extremely difficult to gin up much outrage over an eavesdropping program—war-rants or not—or over a few American citizens being rounded up and put in military prisons without any charges. When our very survival is in imminent danger, all else pales in importance, and we may feel extreme gratitude toward those who seek to save us, even if they break a few laws to do it."

TOO many Americans have been convinced The Marketplace is our Greatest Protector......just like the ads on T.V. say!

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[Andy]

The Reason is a steady-diet of FEAR, From BUSHCO.



TOO many Americans have been convinced The Marketplace is our Greatest Protector......just like the ads on T.V. say!

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None of those reports came from Bush, or anyone in the US. It came from countries with socialized care that is failing. Try again.

 

[Pandora]

.......the system has its faults like any complex organisation but generally its excellent!

There are a lot of stories that get linked on this site in order to prove a negative, which is fine! However, until you have experienced it first hand then its meaningless. For example Andy posts comments like this........



.........they're posted out of ignorance because its not understood and perhaps he's frightened of the unknown, I don't know the reason but again that's fine its an oppinion. But the reality is that anybody and everybody has access to a first class world renowned medical service in the UK. As I say its not perfect nothing is but having lived in many countries round the world it comes second to the German system which is one of the best in the world.

Are there 3 year waits for things like knee surgery’s?


Also can someone decide to pay more for faster quicker care?

 

[Mr. Shaman]

In other words, you right now, if you have health insurance, are subsidizing the government medicare system. As in, you are paying a tax, on top of your medicare payroll tax, to subsidize the system. Aren't you glad?

Gee.....BUSHCO thought it was a pretty-good idea!!!​

March 01, 2006​

"Last week, the Center for Economic and Policy Research and the Institute for America’s Future released a joint report detailing the exact costs of Republican corruption in the Part D disaster. The report calculates that the actual cost to the American public is about $80 billion per year, or $800 billion over the next 10 years—as most federal budgets are calculated.*

For those of you who aren’t Bill Gates and have a hard time putting $80 billion a year into perspective, that’s enough money for a tenfold increase in the annual appropriation for Head Start programs.

This $80 billion price-tag is based on two specific provisions where Republicans sold out seniors for their industry contributors. First, they created a confusing web of competing and inefficient private plans run by private insurers—who receive huge subsidies from the federal government—that beneficiaries must choose from, rather than a simple stand-alone benefit run by Medicare. The low overhead costs of a single administrating agency could save $4.8 billion annually.

Second, they made it illegal for the federal government to negotiate the price of drugs with manufacturers, despite the fact every other industrialized nation negotiates these prices. When the government does negotiate lower prices for bulk drug purchases, as does the Veterans Administration, it saves more than 40 percent compared to the market cost. Applied to Medicare, this would save about $560 billion over the first eight years of the program. The cost of the disastrous Medicare plan is even greater when the subsidies given to insurance companies are factored in."

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Let's read the story straight from the UK again... shall we?

Gee.....when there are so many great stories, about health-care (in general), from The U.S. of A.???????????

What kind o' patriot ARE you??!!!

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