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Keep your hands off our Social Security

Discussion in 'Elections & Political Parties' started by Popeye, Aug 15, 2008.

  1. Popeye

    Popeye Active Member

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    Social Security just celebrated it's 73rd birthday. With that in mind, a new ad has been released featuring the grandson of FDR reminding people which candidate supports Social Security and which candidate has said "Social Security is an absolute disgrace."

    A man like John McCain calls the SS system a disgrace but yet he collects benefits himself. This despite the fact that his beer heiress wife and he have a fortune in excess of $100 million. Though he has flip flopped several times on the issue, McCain's current stance is one of advocating the privatization of SS. Making the system subject to the whims of the stock market. Haven't we been through this all before? I guess it shouldn't be a surprise, after all McCain=Bush.

    Watch the ad and remember that sooner or later virtually all of us are going to need those benefits that Social Security provides.

     
  2. Libsmasher

    Libsmasher New Member

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    This is of course just another of your distortions - McCain actually said

    "Americans have got to understand that we are paying present-day retirees with the taxes paid by young workers in America today. And that's a disgrace. It's an absolute disgrace, and it's got to be fixed.........[Young people] are paying so much that they are paying into a system that they won't receive benefits from on its present track that its on, that's the point."

    You think it's NOT a disgrace that young people have to pay into a system that will be BANKRUPT when most of them reach retirement age, and that to add insult to injury Obama would even raise payroll taxes for?

    Once again, one sees from your post the nature of the Obama supporters - you know you'll lose if you actually debate real McCain positions, so your only recourse is to lie and distort.
     
  3. Popeye

    Popeye Active Member

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    The Social Security "will be bankrupt" talk is just more fear mongering from the right wing as they use any means necessary to reach their underhanded goal of privatizing the system. A few simple adjustments will keep SS solvent. Obama is considering plans that would ask those making over $250,000 to pay in the range of 2% to 4% more in total (combined employer and employee). What's wrong with that?

    As for McCain lets take a look at some facts...John McCain is calling SS a "disgrace" while at the same time pocketing benefits. This despite the fact that he already gets some 58K a year in military disability benefits, had an income of $405,409 in 2007, and is married to a multi millionaire beer heiress.

    Why is McCain collecting money from the system he doesn't need? He's the poster old man for..."do as I say not as I do." Songbird McCain is nothing but a no good hypocrite, in fact the entire GOP is made up of nothing but hypocrites from one end to the other.
     
  4. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    The real disgrace is that the federal government can't keep its hands off of the SS money that should be earmarked for the people who paid it, often unwillingly, into the fund.

    It was none other than Lyndon Johnson who first allowed the SS trust to become a part of the general fund. The idea was to pay for the war against Vietnam, which, as we all know now, was yet another mistake of his administration.

    Now that the baby boomers are nearing retirement, and the funds that have been "borrowed" over the years are coming due, the feds are panicking and saying that taxes have to be raised or benefits cut in order to keep the fund solvent. The fact is that, if the government would just keep its grubby hands off of it and spend it only for retirees, there would be plenty.

    There is nothing wrong with the concept of social security, just with the way that the voters have allowed the federal government to handle the money.

    Bill Clinton wanted to start paying back the moneyborrowed, but, of course, he was superseded by big spenders in that other party, you know, the ones who claim fiscal responsibility.:rolleyes:
     
  5. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

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    you say "unwillingly" like its somehow different then anything else...you dont elect to pay the military, what roads you want, or anything. I did not chose to pay the cops, the Fire Deparment....
     
  6. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    No, it's no different in that regard. Of course, no one chooses to pay taxes of any kind. We just find it easier to get along with things like roads, fire fighters, cops (well, some of us anyway), schools, and retirement.
     
  7. Libsmasher

    Libsmasher New Member

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    As usual, you don't know what you're talking about. In a paper by one of the top social security experts in the country, Laurence Jacob Kotlikoff (an economist at the well-known rightwing hangout, Boston University :p) says:

    http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cach...economist+university&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us

    Kotlikoff's credentials (from wiki):

    So much for your "excursion" into economic theory. :D

    Irrelevent whimpering. Social Security is like one of the subprime banks collapsing. Because democrats have stopped all reform of this hopelessly anachronistic ponzi scheme, EVERYONE should get every bit of their money out as soon as they can before it collapses.
     
  8. top gun

    top gun New Member

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    Include all the true facts and the bottom line is this.

    A) Social Security was created to give some level of security from poverty stricken old age. Before S.S. many elderly were force to live in shanty town slums (todays equivalent of sleeping under a bridge).

    B) From it's inception forward S.S. would always have been completely solvent if over the years politicians hadn't raided it over & over again for other things. In other words when money wasn't stable & available they took it from the place where was... The S.S. Trust Fund.

    C) While it's true that without some shoring up (read that put back some of what was taken & spent on other things) after the baby boomer's get through the system, the payment curve goes back down.

    D) And in conclusion it would be imbecilic & completely backwards to ever say everyone should just invest on their own for retirement. The facts are that for a vast majority not in the higher tax brackets either the money would be spent for day to day living or emergencies. Not to mention that at anytime there could be (as has been several times) severe stock market slumps & crashes that would instantly put those on the bubble without any retirement.

    S.S. does not make a lot of interest but it is much like a banks Christmas Fund Account (with the added protection that one cannot spend it on anything else) where a little is put aside directly out of your check so it's there come Christmas. It's a very smart & intelligent way to help care for people when they become elderly and often unable to work.

    Scary Sidebar: Old John McCain the old miltimillionair... been collecting Social Security for just short of 7 years now!!!!!!!!!!

    The good news... real full time retirement is in his immediate future!:D
     
  9. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

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    Had all my SS withholdings gone into my private 401k and Mutual Fund accounts - I'd retire a Millionaire.

    Instead... and if I get back anything at all, SS will pay me 25-75% of what I put into the system... Thats also assuming I LIVE long enought to collect that money.

    Anyone below 30 needs to recognize that there will be NO SS when we retire... All the flowery promises don't change reality, our nation is in deep debt everywhere and SS is just one of the programs that will collapse on itself OR collapse the country.

    We should write off the debt owed now and end the system. Let people invest their own money, it can automaticly withheld just like FICA, and unlike Top Gun... I think people should have a CHOICE what to do thier money.
     
  10. Federal Farmer

    Federal Farmer New Member

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    Uh, Popeye, I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but it's not "fear mongering" on anyones part, except possibly for the SOCIAL SECURITY DEPARTMENT.

    Here's a page from the Social Security Administration from 2005:

    A "few simple adjustments"? You ARE kidding aren't you? PLEASE tell me you were just kidding! Oh, and you can forget quoting anything Obama has to say about anything. As many positions as he's taken since he started his run, you'd think he was going page by page through the Kama Sutra! I've heard him directly contradict himself on the SAME DAY talking to two seperate groups of people.

    How can you tell Barak Obama is lying, HIS LIPS ARE MOVING!!
     
  11. Federal Farmer

    Federal Farmer New Member

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    Well Gen S., while it may sound drastic, the only realistic solution I've been able to come up with is to immediately shut down Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, have the government give everyone, every penny back that was withheld from them, PLUS interest (TAX FREE of course), and let people invest or spend THEIR money as THEY see fit.

    If this abortion we call "Social Security" was being run by a private citizen, they'd have been arrested, charged, tried, convicted and sentenced to 20 years in prison for running a Ponzi Scheme.
     
  12. top gun

    top gun New Member

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    The first mistake in this logic is the word "HAD". Because many either wouldn't or couldn't for one reason or another. Remember we are talking about millions of people here.

    And then you'd have hundreds of thousands of people signing up for General Relief (welfare) because in the 21st Century America is not going to just have 70 & 80 year old people living in cardboard boxes or under bridges all over the place like before S.S. So the tax burden would still be there just in another less efficient form.


    Secondly and we've discussed this before... if you're so all fired sure that there is no risk in self investing then just agree that those retirement accounts will be Federally Insured like FDIC to grow at a rate equal to or more than the current S.S. Trust Fund System.

    But you won't for one very good reason. There is risk. the market could and will go down at times and people would be affected adversely at times. It's not a sure thing at all self investing your entire retirement plan.

    As far as the Doom & Gloom sayers like GenSeneca that S.S. can't be there it's easy to see that we can do whatever we want, whatever we put a priority into here in America.

    If we can invade a foreign country on a complete and utter lie and then for 6 years or more continue to spend up to $12,000,000,000 (twelve BILLION DOLLARS) PER MONTH for another country... we most certainly can shore up S.S. for our Senior Citizens here at home until the Boomer's get through the system.

    Then it will level back out on its own.


    footnote: It's a given that if we elect "Borrow & Spend" Republicans it hurts the system even more.
     
  13. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

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    im all set even though over 30 now by a month....I plan to use the guns a blazing stock option....IE bank Robbery...hell im old I can say i am nuts and get off or at wors I get a place to stay and food...at best a nice new car and home....
     
  14. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

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    You are accusing me of failed logic? LOL

    That money was TAKEN FROM MY CHECK for SS, "HAD" that money been automatically taken out and put in my 401k instead - I'd be FAR better off... so would anyone else.

    The market is not a sure thing but people make money even when the market is down and I think you're throwing out a strawman with the whole "Self Investing" nonsense... I'm not looking to babysit the account myself, I'm not an account manager - I have an account manager that does that for me and he's DAMN good at it!

    What you call Doom and Gloom, is well documented FACT. There are no "Simple, Quick Fixes" - SS is a SCAM!

    Another thing... SS was NEVER meant to be someones retirement money sufficient for someone to live off of... It was always meant to be SUPPLEMENTAL to the persons other sources of retirement income... Look it up sometime.

    If we can invade Iraq we can Fix SS? How retarded is that statement... And once again, you accused me of faulty logic.

    We spend somewhere around $5000 a second for ALL defense spending, which includes Iraq. I know that sounds like a lot of money to you and the other Lefties but we also spend $4.5 MILLION PER SECOND ON ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS, which includes SS.

    Set your rhetoric off to the side long enough to pick up a calculator and a copy of our budget, you will learn something valuable.
     
  15. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    Exactly. The crux of the matter is that there is nothing wrong with the concept of social security. The problem is that the big spenders in Washington haven't kept their hands off of the funds. The reform that is needed is obvious: Take SS out of the general fund and only use it for retirees. There will be SS retirement for the younger set if we do some basic and sorely needed reforms now.

    Another reform that is needed is to quit giving away the funds for people who haven't paid into the system. Did you know that children with learning disabilities, like ADD, are paid out of the Social Security fund?

    Why, you might ask yourself, does a ten year old need to be paid for having ADD?

    Then, you might think, doesn't that encourage parents to get their children diagnosed ADD?

    I don't know the answer to the first question. The answer to the second is obvious.
     
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