Nambla Vs Polygamy

[Mare Tranquillity]

This has nothing to do with Christianity. It has everything to do with how the members of society determine the rules they live by (as arbitrary as they may be) for the benefit of the state and the citizens.

And when a bigoted majority enslaves the black minority, does that make it right just because the Bible okays slavery? This has everyhthing to do with Christianity because if you take away the Christian prohibitions and condemnations there are no valid reasons to abrogate the US Constitution and disenfranchise gay people.

 

[Pandora]

And when a bigoted majority enslaves the black minority, does that make it right just because the Bible okays slavery? This has everyhthing to do with Christianity because if you take away the Christian prohibitions and condemnations there are no valid reasons to abrogate the US Constitution and disenfranchise gay people.

But Mare, Polygamists have a rich history of traditions and they are denied the types of marriages they want too. There are 3 major religions that have practiced polygamy and have had to hide for years, in the dark. No one makes Homosexual people hide who they are, but polygamists must hide who they are. They are by far more disenfranchised than homosexuals. Fight for their rights and yours will follow. They have a much bigger right to the marriage laws changing.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

But Mare, Polygamists have a rich history of traditions and they are denied the types of marriages they want too. There are 3 major religions that have practiced polygamy and have had to hide for years, in the dark. No one makes Homosexual people hide who they are, but polygamists must hide who they are. They are by far more disenfranchised than homosexuals. Fight for their rights and yours will follow. They have a much bigger right to the marriage laws changing.

No one has more right to marriage than anyone else, every consenting adult should have the right to marry the consenting adult(s) of their choice.

I have said numerous times that I don't see any reason why plural marriage shouldn't be legal. But equally, I'm not in a position to try to fight the internal battles inside religious institutions. My thought has always been that once gay marriage was legal that plural marriages might follow. Plural marriages have worked very well in times gone by and I see no reason for them to be illegal now.

However, with that said, I am not going to campaign for more heterosexaul marrage privileges when the polygamists are some of the most hardcore and fundamentally religious folks in the country and I see no indication that they are willing to support gay and transgendered people in our struggle.

 

[Coyote]

There are a lot of misconceptions with polygamy and NAMBLA. In fact it's weird to have both in the same topic.

First off - what's wrong with polygamy? It is nothing more (or less) then having multiple spouses. Who cares?

The issue usually brought up is that of fundamentalist polygamist cults that promote forced child marriages - underage marriages and underage sex between children and adults. That is a whole 'nother issue that polygamy and is no different than ANY marriage with underage and likely unwilling child.

And that is the only connection to NAMBLA: sexual relationships with children.

Which brings us to NAMBLA. Rightwingers LOVE to bring up NAMBLA as some kind of example of the perversions of homosexuality.

But what is NAMBLA? It's a minute freak organization of homosexual pedophiles that has never had a membership over a thousand people. If they were not homosexual do you think they'd even be mentioned? Why aren't any of these other freak groups desiring a legalization of child sex and lowering of age of consent mentioned? (no brainer - they ain't homosexual)

A thousand? That's nothing. Pedophilia's almost universally revilled and abhorred in the US and certainly garners little support from the mainstream homosexual and heterosexual community.

Sex with children is sex with children regardless of whether the offender is homosexual or heterosexual and that is the real issue here. Not polygamy.

 

[Dr.Who]

And when a bigoted majority enslaves the black minority, does that make it right just because the Bible okays slavery? This has everyhthing to do with Christianity because if you take away the Christian prohibitions and condemnations there are no valid reasons to abrogate the US Constitution and disenfranchise gay people.

You can say it as often as you want but it will not make your statements true. Christians are not the root of all evil in the world. People by nature have evil within them and they will do all sorts of evil things with or without Christianity. They will even do them and justify their evil with Christianity.

Do you think that gay people never suffered any "disenfranchments" before Jesus was born? Do you think that they still do not suffer in many non-christian (or even non-abrahamic) countries?

It might be time to take the chip off your shoulder as it is to some degree imaginary.

 

[Dr.Who]

No one has more right to marriage than anyone else, every consenting adult should have the right to marry the consenting adult(s) of their choice.

So you're in favor of incestual unions?

 

[Bunz]

There are a lot of misconceptions with polygamy and NAMBLA. In fact it's weird to have both in the same topic.

First off - what's wrong with polygamy? It is nothing more (or less) then having multiple spouses. Who cares?

The issue usually brought up is that of fundamentalist polygamist cults that promote forced child marriages - underage marriages and underage sex between children and adults. That is a whole 'nother issue that polygamy and is no different than ANY marriage with underage and likely unwilling child.

And that is the only connection to NAMBLA: sexual relationships with children.

Which brings us to NAMBLA. Rightwingers LOVE to bring up NAMBLA as some kind of example of the perversions of homosexuality.

But what is NAMBLA? It's a minute freak organization of homosexual pedophiles that has never had a membership over a thousand people. If they were not homosexual do you think they'd even be mentioned? Why aren't any of these other freak groups desiring a legalization of child sex and lowering of age of consent mentioned? (no brainer - they ain't homosexual)

A thousand? That's nothing. Pedophilia's almost universally revilled and abhorred in the US and certainly garners little support from the mainstream homosexual and heterosexual community.

Sex with children is sex with children regardless of whether the offender is homosexual or heterosexual and that is the real issue here. Not polygamy.

Well put Coyote.

The issue with both of these groups as others have pointed out is that children are involved under the legal age of consent and the sexual contact is most often done thier either force of coersion. Comparing them is like akin to how one prefers to be victimized.
Whether one gets shot or stabbed to death, they are still murder victims. Same as with the rapes involved.

 

[Pandora]

There are a lot of misconceptions with polygamy and NAMBLA. In fact it's weird to have both in the same topic.

First off - what's wrong with polygamy? It is nothing more (or less) then having multiple spouses. Who cares?

The issue usually brought up is that of fundamentalist polygamist cults that promote forced child marriages - underage marriages and underage sex between children and adults. That is a whole 'nother issue that polygamy and is no different than ANY marriage with underage and likely unwilling child.

And that is the only connection to NAMBLA: sexual relationships with children.

Which brings us to NAMBLA. Rightwingers LOVE to bring up NAMBLA as some kind of example of the perversions of homosexuality.

But what is NAMBLA? It's a minute freak organization of homosexual pedophiles that has never had a membership over a thousand people. If they were not homosexual do you think they'd even be mentioned? Why aren't any of these other freak groups desiring a legalization of child sex and lowering of age of consent mentioned? (no brainer - they ain't homosexual)

A thousand? That's nothing. Pedophilia's almost universally revilled and abhorred in the US and certainly garners little support from the mainstream homosexual and heterosexual community.

Sex with children is sex with children regardless of whether the offender is homosexual or heterosexual and that is the real issue here. Not polygamy.

My point in the post was my frustration with the polygamy issue. Because of the news story of the Texas polygamists. I am not a fan of marrying off your 12 year old to a 60 year old man. I am not trying to defend it at all. But polygamy in general, I do defend. And it seems that it is considered some sort of horrible thing. It drives me nuts when I hear some people speak on the topic of making homosexual marriage legal, the big fear is it could lead to polygamist marriages as though it’s something worse than homosexual marriage. I find that terribly offensive.

But I guess what bothered me was so much focus on how horrible this Texas polygamy ranch was in regards to child sex scandals and I agree they are horrible and something should be done about that. Just as something should be done about NAMBLA, but I HIGHLY doubt anything will ever be done about the second, there is hope for the first though..

NAMBLA has been around a very long time yet I never hear anything about them. NAMBLA’s entire focus is sex with ten year old boys. The boys are no good to them after 13 ish, and they find other ten year old boys. A group invented for the sole purpose of finding and molesting young kids seems to be ignored, while polygamy though true one of their practices is marriage with way to young girls to much older geezers is a problem, it is by no means the main focus of the relationships, or the group as a whole. Yet it gets the brunt of child abuser’s status. Totally ignoring a group whose sole focus is molesting a certain age group of kids, for no other reason than personal sexual pleasure..

You posted that NAMBLA is brought up a lot but I have never seen any posts here about it or in any of the other blogs I have read. Not since the one NAMBLA “couple” killed then raped an 11 year old boy and threw him off of a bridge.

Two groups who could easily be attacked for hurting kids, but the “leftist” group is ignored and the other not. Don’t get me wrong, I am glad the child abuse in the polygamist ranch is not ignored, but I am disgusted that the child abuse in NAMBLA is ignored. And if anyone like me brings it up, its just those right wingers bringing them up… if we don’t, who does?

It would be fair to say in part it’s because its current stuff in the news. And if someone like me takes this opening to bring up the problems of child abuse in NAMBLA while the child abuse topic is already on the table, that should be a good thing, not a bad thing.

If NAMBLA were grown men who targeted 10 year old girls it would be in the news daily. It’s because they are a homosexual group that they are not brought up more often. So I disagree with you completely on this. In fact I will go further to say if they were grown men seeking sex with 10 year old girls they would all be in jail or prison.

 

[ilikeboobs]

NAMBLA are a bunch of sickos who have convinced themselves that there is justification for their actions.

Agreed, but to be the devil's advocate, who are we to judge the relationships of others? Gay marriage is just as good as straight marriage we're told. And, some say that if gay marriage is ok, what's the big deal with polygamy?

The next logical step, of course, would be to legitimize as good every deviant behavior society has ever labeled wrong.

 

[Here We Go]

Did we miss something here? What about forcing children to be their wives? Seems like it's a bunch of child predators banded together and raising their own victims. As far as "grown women" entering into a multiple wives group, they are nothing but a herd for their husband. It is a man's world for sure! Guess there are loopholes in "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultry"??? GAD! What a tawdry subject.

 

[Coyote]

You posted that NAMBLA is brought up a lot but I have never seen any posts here about it or in any of the other blogs I have read. Not since the one NAMBLA “couple” killed then raped an 11 year old boy and threw him off of a bridge.

Two groups who could easily be attacked for hurting kids, but the “leftist” group is ignored and the other not. Don’t get me wrong, I am glad the child abuse in the polygamist ranch is not ignored, but I am disgusted that the child abuse in NAMBLA is ignored. And if anyone like me brings it up, its just those right wingers bringing them up… if we don’t, who does?

I have seen NAMBLA brought up a lot, particularly in homosexual debates and same sex marriage debates. So, as far as the "leftist group" being "ignored" - I don't think so. I think that is only the perception - they aren't in the msm as much because they haven't committed any crimes as an organization, recently. In fact, when that horrible crime was committed, and NAMBLA materials were found in the apartment of one of the suspects they were very much in the news.

The difference though - as I see it is this.

NAMBLA is a group MUCH MUCH smaller then the FLDS (NAMBLA's membership has never numbered more then about a thousand) who do not appear to act on their beliefs much. When members have committed crimes: those crimes are prosecuted and are out in the media.

If NAMBLA - as an organization (protected under freedom of religion) were to create a compound and force relationships like this cult has done - then you better believe it would be in the news every bit as much. But they haven't - they are a small isolated group of perverts who apparently do little beyond existing in dark scummy corners. They certainly don't seem to be holding children against their will in compounds.

In terms of the whole issue of polygamy - I could care less. I'm with you on that. What consenting adults CHOOSE to do of their own free will is up to them - whether it's one man, one woman; one man, many women; many men, one woman; man and man; woman and woman - or any combination there of....who cares?

What rational, logical reason is there not to have polygamy that could not also be used against "traditional" marriages as defined today?

 

[Coyote]

Did we miss something here? What about forcing children to be their wives? Seems like it's a bunch of child predators banded together and raising their own victims. As far as "grown women" entering into a multiple wives group, they are nothing but a herd for their husband. It is a man's world for sure! Guess there are loopholes in "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultry"??? GAD! What a tawdry subject.

If grown women choose to do that it's their choice as consenting adults. It might not be yours or mine.

Or multiple husbands one wife you know.

 

[Dr.Who]

Agreed, but to be the devil's advocate, who are we to judge the relationships of others? Gay marriage is just as good as straight marriage we're told. And, some say that if gay marriage is ok, what's the big deal with polygamy?

The next logical step, of course, would be to legitimize as good every deviant behavior society has ever labeled wrong.

I personally don't care if gays marry or if groups marry. It won't effect me that much and the things that are important to me will not be effected. In fact, If we were to try it and if it were shown to be detrimental and ungodly I believe the gospel thrives more in cultures where ungodliness abounds. But as we saw with MT's answer she feels that ANY consentual relationship between adults is valid. That would allow for incestual relationships. So an 18 yr old girl could marry her grandparents (incest and polygamy) and produce children with more genetic defects than otherwise.

But let's face it. Societies all over the world have arrived at the same conclusion that marriage is between one man and one women. I suggest that this is sort of evolution of sociology; what works continues. Before we embark on some grand experiment to see what happens when marriage can be whatever one wants it to be we should consider the possible consequences very carefully.

Perhaps MT will come back and modify her statement so that she no longer approves of incest. In the mean time she has either been reckless or she has approved of something that is harmful. Caution is called for when we make changes to the primal institutions that have been the basis of our society for thousands of years.

I believe the argument that this thread makes is the one that says: "once we allow gays to marry then everyone will want to be able to get married - pedophiles, bestiophiles, incest lovers, fuzzy stufed animal lovers, etc. Maybe that won't happen but so far MT advocates gay marriage, marriage with "new" genders, polygamy, and incest. She seems to be making the point that the thread began with. I see and understand completely why people are afraid of gay marriage.

 

[Pandora]

Did we miss something here? What about forcing children to be their wives? Seems like it's a bunch of child predators banded together and raising their own victims. As far as "grown women" entering into a multiple wives group, they are nothing but a herd for their husband. It is a man's world for sure! Guess there are loopholes in "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultry"??? GAD! What a tawdry subject.

You can not commit adultry by being with your own wife

 

[Here We Go]

You can not commit adultry by being with your own wife

You got a point there. Now that's a loophole for sure with polygamists!!