Politicians needs to do more to attract business to U.S.

[top gun]

We do not have a business climate that is very inviting to companies outside the U.S.

I don't understand why the politicians don't do the following.

• Fair Tax - This would have many businesses clamoring to get in
• Stop Cap & Tax legistation - by passing this - companies will leave the U.S.
• Remove h/c legislation that penalizes business

If we are going to get back on track as a nation, our politicans need to take the steps to bring business to our shores and stop them from closing or leaving.

Perhaps we should go the Republicant way. It goes something like this...

First: There should only be a few rich people and no middle class because those middle class people just earn too darn much and besides they're really just uppity poor people.

Secondly: Now that we've effectively whored out the middle class let's make all the underclass worker types live & work at standards close to or below the standards of say Korea, Vietnam or Mexico so the few at the top can buy two yachts at a time instead of just one. You know work for a couple dollars in a 12 hour work day... live in huts and make shift shanties... work in conditions that kill both the worker and the environment... and really compete!!!

I probably shouldn't have brought up that last highlighted part. Now the Republicants will steal it and say that they have found a solution to both those pesky Workers Compensation claims and pollution.

They'll call it... HR666 The Dead Men Don't Tell Tales Bill.

 

[Pidgey]

There's always been a lot of misunderstanding about taxes. "Profitable activities" pay ALL taxes, regardless of exactly where the numbers seem to move from and to. "Profitable activities" only occur because some circumstance exists between customers and producers. The important absolute sources are and have always been mining, manufacturing and agriculture. If a country is mined out of commercial-grade ores (or never had them to begin with), then that country better be willing and able to manufacture and/or produce agriculturally if it expects to "grow" an economy.

But all of those things are subject to a kind of relativity with respect to the needs of whatever market they're bracketed in. If a large part of a country's economy is based on the mining of bauxite ore and the production of aluminum products, what happens when some other country discovers a huge ore concentration that is much more pure and, therefore, requires much less of an energy input to produce aluminum? That second country can dump aluminum products on the world market more cheaply than the first as soon as it installs the equipment and infrastructure to benefit from the find.

So, back to the first country... when its economy starts tanking due to this circumstance, what do the people do? Do the Republicans and Democrats of that country start ripping into each other about the failures of their respective policies and their various manifestations of corruption? That, unfortunately, seems to be the most likely result based on history.

As it happens in the US, we're down on a lot of minerals and energy (oil & coal) as well as manufacturing. What's important is the trend. If every day that passes sees a decrease of whatever it is that a country produces in totality, how in the world is that economy supposed to grow? Right now, the US is only managing to appear not to decline too fast by way of efficiency gains, business cannibalism and by exerting some control over the world around it. There will inevitably come a time when the exchange of products between the US and the world around it will completely equalize. The absolute result of that will mean impoverishment for the general population, plain and simple. Mathematically, there's no other conclusion and I don't give a d@mn how you dicker with the tax laws or how many rich folks you kill and loot. That last strategy, by the way, didn't work out too well during the French Revolution or for the Bolsheviks, either, did it?

 

[rally2xs]

We are the Saudi Arabia of coal. I stood on the edge of an iron mine that extended as far as I could see, and only had 1 shovel working. It was a big shovel, but c'mon, it's not a lack of minerals. And we _have_ oil, too - some communistic Greenpeace-types are bent on destroying the USA from within by raising non-existent "reasons" not to drill it. It sabotage, pure and simple - yet we fall for it. Well, some of us, anyway.

The thing that has us over a barrel is the income tax - all forms, but especially corporate income tax. It is sucking this nation dry of jobs, as all industries that can do it seek to move operations overseas, and thus away from that tax.

Get rid of income taxes - all of them - individual, corporate, social security, medicare, capital gains, gift, inheritance, etc. and watch the economic boom. We will be the economic envy of the entire rest of the world.

And, we _will_ pass the FairTax, eventually. We'll do it either before a catclysmic economic collapse, and enjoy life, or we'll do it after a cataclysmic economic collapse, and be forever damaged. Its a pay me now or pay me later situation. I vote for now.

 

[AtheismIsReality]

We are the Saudi Arabia of coal. I stood on the edge of an iron mine that extended as far as I could see, and only had 1 shovel working. It was a big shovel, but c'mon, it's not a lack of minerals. And we _have_ oil, too - some communistic Greenpeace-types are bent on destroying the USA from within by raising non-existent "reasons" not to drill it. It sabotage, pure and simple - yet we fall for it. Well, some of us, anyway.

The thing that has us over a barrel is the income tax - all forms, but especially corporate income tax. It is sucking this nation dry of jobs, as all industries that can do it seek to move operations overseas, and thus away from that tax.

Get rid of income taxes - all of them - individual, corporate, social security, medicare, capital gains, gift, inheritance, etc. and watch the economic boom. We will be the economic envy of the entire rest of the world.

And, we _will_ pass the FairTax, eventually. We'll do it either before a catclysmic economic collapse, and enjoy life, or we'll do it after a cataclysmic economic collapse, and be forever damaged. Its a pay me now or pay me later situation. I vote for now.

Srsly, the oil company with their legions of lawyers and massive profits are being kept down by a bunch of long haired protesters. Get a grip. We could drill here more than we do now, but you're going to find something interesting, the suppliers are not going to cut their own throats by overproducing so you can have cheaper gasoline. Good morning, that does of reality is on the house.

 

[rally2xs]

Srsly, the oil company with their legions of lawyers and massive profits are being kept down by a bunch of long haired protesters. Get a grip. We could drill here more than we do now, but you're going to find something interesting, the suppliers are not going to cut their own throats by overproducing so you can have cheaper gasoline. Good morning, that does of reality is on the house.

Yes, overproduction is going to be tough considering a lack of refining capacity in this country. That, BTW, is also the result of the Greenpeace bunch, that has democrats in their back pockets, and THOSE are the long-hairs that are sabotaging this Nation's prosperity in the name of a bogus environmental cause.

Environmental goals necessary to the living of a good life in the USA were achieved 20 years ago. Everything since has been expensive overkill, and promoted by some for the purpose of damaging the USA, and followed by some because they don't know any better. Why couldn't Al Gore answer the question about the polar bears recently? Because the questioner was correct, and the supposed dire threat to the polar bears is bogus. Hey, if polar bears can't adapt to chasing and catching caribou instead of fishing for seals, then tough - they deserve to starve. Funny, grizzly bears don't have to fish for seals... Neither do black bears. Its balderdash, plain and simple.

 

[AtheismIsReality]

Yes, overproduction is going to be tough considering a lack of refining capacity in this country. That, BTW, is also the result of the Greenpeace bunch, that has democrats in their back pockets, and THOSE are the long-hairs that are sabotaging this Nation's prosperity in the name of a bogus environmental cause.

Environmental goals necessary to the living of a good life in the USA were achieved 20 years ago. Everything since has been expensive overkill, and promoted by some for the purpose of damaging the USA, and followed by some because they don't know any better. Why couldn't Al Gore answer the question about the polar bears recently? Because the questioner was correct, and the supposed dire threat to the polar bears is bogus. Hey, if polar bears can't adapt to chasing and catching caribou instead of fishing for seals, then tough - they deserve to starve. Funny, grizzly bears don't have to fish for seals... Neither do black bears. Its balderdash, plain and simple.

Again, let's not pretend capacity is a problem for the poor oil companies due to environmentalists.

It's amazing how many people think business is going to act in the consumer's best interest. Tell you what, when the oil companies are losing money, then get back to me about diminished prosperity.

 

[Pidgey]

We are the Saudi Arabia of coal. I stood on the edge of an iron mine that extended as far as I could see, and only had 1 shovel working. It was a big shovel, but c'mon, it's not a lack of minerals. And we _have_ oil, too - some communistic Greenpeace-types are bent on destroying the USA from within by raising non-existent "reasons" not to drill it. It sabotage, pure and simple - yet we fall for it. Well, some of us, anyway.

Which goes right back to:

But all of those things are subject to a kind of relativity with respect to the needs of whatever market they're bracketed in...

IF the mine that you're referring to still had an ore quality that was high enough, AND if demand for that same ore was great enough, I assure you, that mine would still be blowin' and goin' regardless of the greenies.

Yeah, you hear that about coal. 'Tis true... we've got quite a bit yet. Pity about the ever-increasing overburden, decreasing seam thickness and their effects on economic viability. It's an old methodology... you always pick the low-hanging fruit first.

 

[top gun]

There's always been a lot of misunderstanding about taxes. "Profitable activities" pay ALL taxes, regardless of exactly where the numbers seem to move from and to. "Profitable activities" only occur because some circumstance exists between customers and producers. The important absolute sources are and have always been mining, manufacturing and agriculture. If a country is mined out of commercial-grade ores (or never had them to begin with), then that country better be willing and able to manufacture and/or produce agriculturally if it expects to "grow" an economy.

But all of those things are subject to a kind of relativity with respect to the needs of whatever market they're bracketed in. If a large part of a country's economy is based on the mining of bauxite ore and the production of aluminum products, what happens when some other country discovers a huge ore concentration that is much more pure and, therefore, requires much less of an energy input to produce aluminum? That second country can dump aluminum products on the world market more cheaply than the first as soon as it installs the equipment and infrastructure to benefit from the find.

So, back to the first country... when its economy starts tanking due to this circumstance, what do the people do? Do the Republicans and Democrats of that country start ripping into each other about the failures of their respective policies and their various manifestations of corruption? That, unfortunately, seems to be the most likely result based on history.

As it happens in the US, we're down on a lot of minerals and energy (oil & coal) as well as manufacturing. What's important is the trend. If every day that passes sees a decrease of whatever it is that a country produces in totality, how in the world is that economy supposed to grow? Right now, the US is only managing to appear not to decline too fast by way of efficiency gains, business cannibalism and by exerting some control over the world around it. There will inevitably come a time when the exchange of products between the US and the world around it will completely equalize. The absolute result of that will mean impoverishment for the general population, plain and simple. Mathematically, there's no other conclusion and I don't give a d@mn how you dicker with the tax laws or how many rich folks you kill and loot. That last strategy, by the way, didn't work out too well during the French Revolution or for the Bolsheviks, either, did it?

I think you make some good observations here Pidgey.

On the part I highlighted... your observation that both sides lay in wait for problems when the other side has control so they can pounce on them politically is certainly true.

For the most part I see this as a problem due to the far Right or Left radical wings on either side more interested with power than just getting somethings good & needed done. It is a problem.

 

[top gun]

We are the Saudi Arabia of coal. I stood on the edge of an iron mine that extended as far as I could see, and only had 1 shovel working. It was a big shovel, but c'mon, it's not a lack of minerals. And we _have_ oil, too - some communistic Greenpeace-types are bent on destroying the USA from within by raising non-existent "reasons" not to drill it. It sabotage, pure and simple - yet we fall for it. Well, some of us, anyway.

The thing that has us over a barrel is the income tax - all forms, but especially corporate income tax. It is sucking this nation dry of jobs, as all industries that can do it seek to move operations overseas, and thus away from that tax.

Get rid of income taxes - all of them - individual, corporate, social security, medicare, capital gains, gift, inheritance, etc. and watch the economic boom. We will be the economic envy of the entire rest of the world.

And, we _will_ pass the FairTax, eventually. We'll do it either before a catclysmic economic collapse, and enjoy life, or we'll do it after a cataclysmic economic collapse, and be forever damaged. Its a pay me now or pay me later situation. I vote for now.

You are having the meltdown in in logic that has many equally confused.

First let's talk natural resources. Pollution is pollution and I'm pretty sure we can all agree if we're honest that pollution is a bad thing. If not go out to LA and breath the smog on a particularly bad day... you'll become a believer.

Next let's go to your observation that we have sh!t loads of natural resources so let's just use 'em up. Here's the thing... let's take oil. The respected estimate is that at the present rate of the growth of consumption we will be out of oil in 60 to 100 years. Lets take the high number let's say 100 years.

Now 100 years may seem like a long time but is it? That's basically one generations lifetime... no oil. Now should we just wait until the tap goes dry or start conserving now? Say we double effecentcy... now that 100 years of oil is 200 years of oil. Sounds better huh?

At the same time since we know this is something that is for all intents & purposes going to run out. Should we start now before it's a horse & buggy, bicycle world again to perfect new technologies so we have modern transportation and power? Or start on that when the time comes? See there's nothing communistic Greenpeace about it. It's simply preparing with common sense.

Finally on taxes. Let's look at what would happen if tomorrow we just stopped collecting taxes. The country would not only not be able to afford to protect itself but we'd almost immediately become a feudal system with a few lords and a whole lot of serfs.

While it's true that there is always some waste as far as to return outlay in any form of taxation that certainly doesn't negate the many, many good, critical and highly important things taxes do pay for and for the massive common good it creates. (that the rich, poor and everyone in between all benefit from)

And then when you look at fairness from a quality of life standpoint for everyone there's not much denying that a progressive income tax system has it's place because of the decent standard of living it helps to create overall.

All taxation being completely equal has this problem... no rich person ever starved to death or had his family sleep out in the cold under a bridge because of taxes. A poor person on the other hand could.

So venting against wasting tax money... I can of course agree with that. But no matter how you collect the taxes that doesn't prevent waste. The waste is in how it is spent not in how it's collected. And the progressive tax is simply the best way we have found.

BOTTOM LINE: Look at where we just came from. Let's let the new administration try to do some good.

 

[rally2xs]

You are having the meltdown in in logic that has many equally confused.

First let's talk natural resources. Pollution is pollution and I'm pretty sure we can all agree if we're honest that pollution is a bad thing.

However, reacting in the extreme to it is a worse thing.

If not go out to LA and breath the smog on a particularly bad day... you'll become a believer.

Of course, that is the worst place in the country for air pollution due to their frequent thermal inversions as well as population density. Measures taken to combat that sort of pollution are unwarranted and wasteful in Boise, Idaho, or Ogalala, Nebraska.

Next let's go to your observation that we have sh!t loads of natural resources so let's just use 'em up. Here's the thing... let's take oil. The respected estimate is that at the present rate of the growth of consumption we will be out of oil in 60 to 100 years. Lets take the high number let's say 100 years.

Well, its not a respected estimate, it's an alarmists estimate. New oil is being found all the time. The only reason that we're not finding huge oil fields in the USA is that, again, extremist environmentalists have the democrats in their hip pockets, and said democrats have blocked exploration for new oil sources in the country. Meanwhile, Russia / Cuba are preparing to drill the oil, right of Florida's coasts, that Federal law and I believe Florida law as well prohibits US companies from drilling.

We will NEVER run out of oil, it will simply become economically unviable.

Now 100 years may seem like a long time but is it? That's basically one generations lifetime... no oil. Now should we just wait until the tap goes dry or start conserving now? Say we double effecentcy... now that 100 years of oil is 200 years of oil. Sounds better huh? .

What we should not do is take measures that harm the economy. If you can raise the economy of a car by means that won't make it more expensive, or unsuitable to the task, then fine. But what should be done, instead, is to work as swiftly as possible to put in place an alternative. The January, 2008 edition of Scientific American proposed a method for making the country 100% solar. They had schemes for storing energy in pressurized underground cavities such as caves and mines at up to 4000 psi. That'll store as much solar and wind power as needed to power the country. Of course, one has to kick the environmentalists in the teeth to string the power wires to make it happen - there's no environmental impact from overhead wires, but that doesn't stop 'em from objecting to them - but we ought to begin construction on it yesterday.

At the same time since we know this is something that is for all intents & purposes going to run out. Should we start now before it's a horse & buggy, bicycle world again to perfect new technologies so we have modern transportation and power? Or start on that when the time comes? See there's nothing communistic Greenpeace about it. It's simply preparing with common sense.

Short term, we should drill like crazy. Long term, we should apply technology with all due speed to prepare for a switchover to something that will be more sustainable and cheaper.

Finally on taxes. Let's look at what would happen if tomorrow we just stopped collecting taxes. The country would not only not be able to afford to protect itself but we'd almost immediately become a feudal system with a few lords and a whole lot of serfs.

Naw, what would happen is that we'd borrow 100% of our operating expenses instead of 50%, while our industries expanded and produced extremely cheap products, exports would go up like crazy, people would go back to work such that we would have full employment in a very short time, and then we could figure out how to re-apply taxation so as not to disturb that economic engine.

While it's true that there is always some waste as far as to return outlay in any form of taxation that certainly doesn't negate the many, many good, critical and highly important things taxes do pay for and for the massive common good it creates. (that the rich, poor and everyone in between all benefit from)

I agree that the Federal Government does an _awful_ lot of good with the money it spends. There is also a lot of incredibly boneheaded spending. Need some CHANGE here…

And then when you look at fairness from a quality of life standpoint for everyone there's not much denying that a progressive income tax system has it's place because of the decent standard of living it helps to create overall.

100% disagree that any sort of income tax has any place in the overall fabric of this government. The income tax has been bleeding this country to death for decades. It is the chief reason for first the textile industry going overseas, then the consumer electronics industry, then the great damage that was done to our steel-making and auto industries, and now the intellectual industries such as computer software. The country cannot stand much more of this. We absolutely HAVE to get the industrial jobs back - those people that can run a stamping machine and make good money are pauperized when you tell them their only avenue to a good life is college. Fully 50% of the population is below average IQ. Many of them do not get a great advantage out of extra "training", and indeed a bachelor's degree is now the new high school diploma. Want to make "real" money? Get a Masters or PHD.

The income tax is at the bottom of all this, and we absolutely must get rid of it. It is the 2nd worst idea that this country has ever had, right behind slavery.

All taxation being completely equal has this problem... no rich person ever starved to death or had his family sleep out in the cold under a bridge because of taxes. A poor person on the other hand could.

I don't quite understand that, but will say that getting rid of the income tax and running the country on a National Sales Tax would dramatically reduce the number of poor people.

So venting against wasting tax money... I can of course agree with that. But no matter how you collect the taxes that doesn't prevent waste. The waste is in how it is spent not in how it's collected. And the progressive tax is simply the best way we have found.

Waste is a separate issue, of course. And the consumption tax that is described by the Fair Tax is indeed progressive. Poor people don't pay it at all. People at twice the poverty level only pay 50% of the taxation rate. People at 3X the poverty level pay only 66% of the taxation rate. Nobody at all pays the full taxation rate, all though Bill Gates probably pays 99.999999% of whatever the taxation rate is.

BOTTOM LINE: Look at where we just came from. Let's let the new administration try to do some good.

Not sure what the new administration has to do with it, but they _are_ more likely to do excessive things in the name of pollution. They SHOULD embrace the fairtax, but don't know how they feel about it.