Texas_tea
Well-Known Member
Everything for free, huh ....
I think they are more interested in creating government slaves (a permanent government under class like you see in Europe) than the giveaways.
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Poverty Creates More Poverty
- Thread starter OldTrapper
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I think they are more interested in creating government slaves (a permanent government under class like you see in Europe) than the giveaways.
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Gipper
Well-Known Member
The State is the most damaging institution ever invented by man. The State has caused more death, destruction, and suffering than any other institution...by a considerable margin.
So, since the State has such a terrible track record, why does it continue? Those who say we must have the State because without it we have anarchy. I much prefer anarchy to the State we now suffer under.
What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It’s not good at much else.
- Tom Clancy
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OldTrapper
Well-Known Member
The State is man. Why would you blame an inanimate concept for the problems created by man himself? In an anarchist society it would be even worse.
Gipper
Well-Known Member
Wrong on both counts.
The State is the government with all it's horrors.
An anarchist society can't be worse that a statist society. A stateless society would be an improvement. That is not to say a stateless society would be utopia...sadly man is terribly flawed and many in society are really bad people...many of whom are in control of the State, as we have today and one of many reasons to dissolve the State.
If there is no state to deal with the bad guys, that is bad. If we have a state to deal with the bad guys, that is much worse....as we have today.
The State is the biggest criminal enterprise known to man.
Take a listen to the great Robert Hibbs:
Did anarchists drop a-bombs, fire bombs, and kill millions of Jews, Armenians, Rwandans, Chinese, Russians, Ukrainians, Cambodians, Vietnamese, etc..................? Who did these things? STATISTS!!!!!!!!!!!
"The State is easily the greatest instrument of destruction known to man."
OldTrapper
Well-Known Member
Interesting concept even if it is irrational. What you are attempting to say is that the State is some form of Artificial Intelligence created by man, and therefore cannot be controlled by man, and is not the result of the actions of man. Accordingly, you can blame Obama for NOTHING since it is the "State" that is evil.
Do you even understand what anarchy is? It is a condition in which the rule of law is controlled by the strongest member of any group. Anarchy naturally dissolves into a constant state of fear, and violence. The advocates fo a "peaceful" anarchy completely ignore the basis of human nature. They rely on several "principles" such anti-hierarchy, anti-property, anti-capitalist, anti-state, or pro-ecology. The problem being that all of those tenets are the basis for human growth, and existence. Of course, they are also the basis for all of mans inhumanity to man.
This was actually a result of the actions of European, and German, anarchists:
http://www.illinoislaborhistory.org/haymarket/the-story-of-the-haymarket-affair.html
Gipper
Well-Known Member
Not irrational at all. Actually most irrational...what is entirely IRRATIONAL is the belief in the state, when it has shown itself to be corrupt and deadly.
The State is CONTROLLED by man...that is why it is so terrible.
Obama is the state. Just as Bush was. Both men are statists with way too much power over society. When you have corrupt men and women (politicians and government bureaucrats) controlling a society as we have today, they use the power of State in nefarious ways. The consequence of this is lost liberty for the people and in extreme cases, much suffering and death.
History clearly proves me right.
Your link on the actions of anarchists is most absurd. Comparing the few minor actions of anarchists with the huge number of deadly actions taken by statists, is completely irrational. Equating hundreds of millions of deaths to a handful of deaths, is a fool's errand. Its akin to comparing a nuclear weapon to a small fire cracker.
As I stated, anarchy is not a good solution, but it is a better solution than statism.
America now is a state where it's government has unlimited powers. Whenever a state attains unlimited powers, history tells us bad things will happen.
Gipper
Well-Known Member
Change that to....ACTUALLY MOST RATIONAL....
OldTrapper
Well-Known Member
America is at as crossroads for certain. As with any human institution it is only a matter of time before it becomes corrupted. Because of that nature it matters not what system is in place, anarchy, or some form of State government, man will soon corrupt it. What would be a better answer would be to change the hearts of man as Christ taught. What has created the plutocracy, oligarchy, kleptocracy, crony capitalism, whatever you want to call it. Anarchy simply forms a different variation of the same corruption. And it is not that the government has unlimited control. That is not true at all. Corporate powers have far more power through lobbyests, and the influence of money, then government, and that is the source of the corruption.
Here is one , and perhaps the major reason since it is the antithesis of the Founders desires, reasons why the country is in such disarray:
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/top-1-percent-took-record-share-2012-income-8C11118666
The top 1 percent of U.S. earners collected 19.3 percent of household income in 2012, their largest share in Internal Revenue Service figures going back a century.
U.S. income inequality has been growing for almost three decades. But until last year, the top 1 percent's share of pre-tax income had not yet surpassed the 18.7 percent it reached in 1927, according to an analysis of IRS figures dating to 1913 by economists at the University of California, Berkeley, the Paris School of Economics and Oxford University.
One of them, Emmanuel Saez of the University of California, Berkeley, said the incomes of the richest Americans might have surged last year in part because they cashed in stock holdings to avoid higher capital gains taxes that took effect in January.
Last year, the incomes of the top 1 percent rose 19.6 percent compared with a 1 percent increase for the remaining 99 percent.
And while the 1% do so well, it is that same 1% that will take from all others:
http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nightly-news/52977217/
Disturbing news for retirees and their health benefits
A growing list of companies are outsourcing their health care benefits leaving many retirees concerned for their future care. NBC’s Tom Costello reports.
steveox
Well-Known Member
Gipper
Well-Known Member
I agree with most of what you have stated, but not your comments on anarchy.
Your comments on the top 1% and big business are accurate. The main reason America has become a oligarchy is because the State is too big and too powerful. The 1% and their friends on Wall Street/To Big To Fail Banks OWN the State. In effect, they are as much part of the State as Big Ears is.
You have stated anarchy means the strongest rule. I don't believe that. But, I do believe that statism means that evil, ambitious, corrupt people lead the State. Anarchy means no government. I much prefer no government to what we have today.
Look what happened after the banking crisis of 2008. The banks got bigger and more powerful. Our government assisted in this effort because they are owned by the bankers.
Just another reason to dissolve the State.
Thomas Jefferson said, the natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground. That is an understatement considering our current state of affairs.
A lot of great post, but as far as I'm concerned our problems start and end with The Federal Reserve Bank..It is only necessary because Congress desperately needs an unlimited funding mechanism that bypasses voters.
Think about it.. What does Congress do? Congress creates and passes projects and laws. Somebody has to pay for that stuff. Now you can't keep coming to the American taxpayer year after year, begging for permission to subsidize things like the American Wool Growers Association. Americans won't pay for these minority concerns and pork barrel projects. Taxpayers would say no or maybe even throw the bums out. So Congress invented a way to bypass citizens.
They invented the Federal Reserve Bank. That way, Congress has an unlimited checking account and an unlimited line of credit. What they don't have to do is ask American taxpayers for budgetary permission nor do they have to worry about American taxpayers getting angry and voting them out of office. Congress simply spends money they don't have, the Federal Reserve finances it by issuing treasury debt, and the American taxpayer gets stuck with the bill.
The Federal Reserve Bank was created so that politicians or government, could borrow as much money as they needed without EVER asking our taxpaying citizens for permission.
The Federal Reserve was born and sold to us a panacea to smooth out all those panics of the early 1900's. In 16 short years, the Fed gave us the Great Depression- an event far worse than any bank run.
We should have eliminated the Fed right then and there.
Without citizen stewardship or budgetary input or oversight, American citizens or taxpayers or voters were effectively marginalized. We were no longer in charge of our government. Government was no longer constrained by it's citizens. They could spend as much as they liked without repercussion. They were free to redistribute wealth anyway they saw fit by drawing on that unlimited line of credit and forcing you to pay for it. You could not vote them out of office and even if you did, the new ones were apt to be just as bad as the old ones. It's the system that is flawed- yet we argue about the symptoms.
The underlying problem has always been the Federal Reserve Bank.
That's why we fight. We think we hate the other guy's politics. We hate his spending. We blame him for all of that inflation, lost purchasing power, four dollar gas, crappy wages. We think we hate his social programs, his wars, his lies, and all of that debt. Trillions to bankers, sequester, debt ceiling hikes. All of that financial chaos is directly attributable to the unelected Federal Reserve which enables our unaccountable politicians to literally steal taxpayers blind. Yet, we ignore the real problem, the Federal Reserve, and instead fight some imagined enemy which is either the GOP or the Democrats.
The Federal Reserve Bank and it's never ending debt creation is responsible for virtually all of our problems. God could not design a better distraction than partisan politics. Politics is simply one of the symptoms of this disease. Some day if we are to survive, real political reform and accountability in this country will come at the cost of eliminating the Federal Reserve Bank. That is job one. I am sure of it.
Think about it.. What does Congress do? Congress creates and passes projects and laws. Somebody has to pay for that stuff. Now you can't keep coming to the American taxpayer year after year, begging for permission to subsidize things like the American Wool Growers Association. Americans won't pay for these minority concerns and pork barrel projects. Taxpayers would say no or maybe even throw the bums out. So Congress invented a way to bypass citizens.
They invented the Federal Reserve Bank. That way, Congress has an unlimited checking account and an unlimited line of credit. What they don't have to do is ask American taxpayers for budgetary permission nor do they have to worry about American taxpayers getting angry and voting them out of office. Congress simply spends money they don't have, the Federal Reserve finances it by issuing treasury debt, and the American taxpayer gets stuck with the bill.
The Federal Reserve Bank was created so that politicians or government, could borrow as much money as they needed without EVER asking our taxpaying citizens for permission.
The Federal Reserve was born and sold to us a panacea to smooth out all those panics of the early 1900's. In 16 short years, the Fed gave us the Great Depression- an event far worse than any bank run.
We should have eliminated the Fed right then and there.
Without citizen stewardship or budgetary input or oversight, American citizens or taxpayers or voters were effectively marginalized. We were no longer in charge of our government. Government was no longer constrained by it's citizens. They could spend as much as they liked without repercussion. They were free to redistribute wealth anyway they saw fit by drawing on that unlimited line of credit and forcing you to pay for it. You could not vote them out of office and even if you did, the new ones were apt to be just as bad as the old ones. It's the system that is flawed- yet we argue about the symptoms.
The underlying problem has always been the Federal Reserve Bank.
That's why we fight. We think we hate the other guy's politics. We hate his spending. We blame him for all of that inflation, lost purchasing power, four dollar gas, crappy wages. We think we hate his social programs, his wars, his lies, and all of that debt. Trillions to bankers, sequester, debt ceiling hikes. All of that financial chaos is directly attributable to the unelected Federal Reserve which enables our unaccountable politicians to literally steal taxpayers blind. Yet, we ignore the real problem, the Federal Reserve, and instead fight some imagined enemy which is either the GOP or the Democrats.
The Federal Reserve Bank and it's never ending debt creation is responsible for virtually all of our problems. God could not design a better distraction than partisan politics. Politics is simply one of the symptoms of this disease. Some day if we are to survive, real political reform and accountability in this country will come at the cost of eliminating the Federal Reserve Bank. That is job one. I am sure of it.
Gipper
Well-Known Member
I agree. The Fed is a big powerful element of the State. The Fed controls the nation's money supply...and we all know when a few powerful PRIVATE bankers control the money of a nation, they have all the power.
Who gave the Fed it's power? The State did. The State protects the Fed and the Fed protects the State. A most incestuous relationship, which causes great harm to those not part of their club.
The Fed IS the State. Abolish the Fed by abolishing the State.
The banking crisis and its aftermath clearly show the American government is owned lock stock and barrel by the big banks and associated wealthy elites.
The Founders warned us not to institute a central banking system, because they knew what would happen. But, like most things they warned us about, we ignored their warnings.
OldTrapper
Well-Known Member
Did the State, an artificial entity, create the Fed, another artificial entity? If so, we are in a world of hurt for surely the machines now control us.
Gipper
Well-Known Member
There is nothing artificial about the State or the Fed. Both entities are managed and controlled by humans, most of whom are corrupt.
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OldTrapper
Well-Known Member
And yet you consistently refer to the State as if it was some powerful entity uncontrollable by man. The problem is that the people have become apathetic, and acquiesced their power to the State. The old saying "you cannot fight city hall" has become so ingrained in their psyche that they have given up the fight.
It is not that the "State" is so dangerous, it is the power that the people give to those who are the State that is the danger. Even in your anarchist State once one gains the advantage, whether it be by force, or by rule, then you have the same corruption. Jefferson proposed a "mini-State" form of government from which the concept of our States rights came. However, even there the States have given up much of their power in order to receive the "gratuity" offered by the Fed. Look at education if you will. The Fed offers only 8% of the education budget, yet now controls almost 100% of a schools activities, and curriculum.
If you want to strip the "State" of its power then you must return that power to the people, and only they can take it back.
