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Prayer is ridiculous

Discussion in 'Culture & Religion' started by Dawkinsrocks, Sep 9, 2008.

  1. Dawkinsrocks

    Dawkinsrocks Well-Known Member

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    If, as most christians assert, god knows everything he must know what will happen in the future.

    To know what will happen in the future the future must be fixed and unchangeable. It might look like there are lots of options to us but to know the future it cannot vary.

    So if god knows the future and cannot vary it, apart from the fact that this means he is not omnipotent, it means that prayer is a complete waste of time.

    Either you are praying for something that is going to happen anyway (often cited as evidence of the power of prayer) or you are praying for a change that cannot happen.

    Either way.

    It is a waste of time.

    And that is even if god had the decency to exist.

    I feel for all those christians out there. It must be really frustrating believing in something that could have made the universe any way it wanted but chose a way that makes it impossible for sane, reaonable people to believe.
     
  2. 9sublime

    9sublime Active Member

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    I'm agnostic, and certainly don't believe in the Christian God, but your logic is flawed.

    At what point can God know the future, but not be able to change the future?
     
  3. bododie

    bododie New Member

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    You must have done something really bad to worry so much about the existence of God. No worries, I'll stand up for you, 'cause you're really good comic relief.
     
  4. Dawkinsrocks

    Dawkinsrocks Well-Known Member

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    Knowledge is justifed true belief

    If you know something is going to happen it has to happen for the claimed knowledge of it to stand a chance of qualifying as knowledge.

    So if god is all knowing he must know the future but he can't know it if it is changeable.

    If I say I know it is going to rain tomorrow and then it doesn't rain you would rightly question my claim to have known it.

    My logic is not flawed. It is dead on.

    And I don't worry about the existence of god but I am very disturbed about the poisoning of minds that is done in his name, the repression of science and the involvement of this superstitious claptrap in the world politics.

    Like Palin claiming that the Iraq war is god's will.

    I don't see many christians rushing to denounce her
     
  5. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

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    I think you need a refresher course in Logic....
    What about the poisoning of minds through Anti-Theist clap trap?
    What about the supression of Human, civil and property rights done in the name of Science?

    I have an example of superstition: Man Made Global Warming
    Just because you take her statements out of context to fit your preconceived notions doesn't mean everyone is so gullible.
     
  6. Dawkinsrocks

    Dawkinsrocks Well-Known Member

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    Gen

    the automatic gainsaying of anything I post is just dull.

    Come on, argue back.

    See if you can take some words, add some grammar and logic and come up with a coherent view.

    Try it.

    You might like it.
     
  7. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

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    Mr. Mouthpiece for Socialism,

    I thought my razor was dull until I began reading your posts. You have yet to say ANYTHING of substance... And the above post is typical of your Troll baited ramblings.

    Go Fish.
     
  8. Dawkinsrocks

    Dawkinsrocks Well-Known Member

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    More insults.

    And more evience of brainwashing.

    I know your government tells you that all those who criticise the USA are lefty scum but I'm afraid it isn't the case.

    Now, let's walk through the argument together and I will write slowly as I know you can't read very fast.

    To know the future it has to be fixed.

    If that is too hard for you to grasp I will try to use pictures.

    If the future is fixed there is no point asking for it to be changed.

    Keeping up?

    Ipso facto, prayer is a waste of time.

    Except perhaps as a bit of harmless fun for the mentally challenged who like talking to an imaginary friend
     
  9. 9sublime

    9sublime Active Member

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    I'd rather worry about the existence of God than accept it like dumb cattle, as many of the worlds population have done. I'd rather come to the conclusion he does exist through proper thought than just accept it because my parents etc. told me he did.
     
  10. 9sublime

    9sublime Active Member

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    Dawkinsrocks, you have not addressed my criticism properly.

    Even if God knows the future, at what point does it stop him changing the future?
     
  11. Dawkinsrocks

    Dawkinsrocks Well-Known Member

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    If I say I know it will rain tomorrow but then it doesn't rain tomorrow would you say that my statement claiming to know tomorrow's weather was accurate or not?
     
  12. bododie

    bododie New Member

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    .

    Do you still believe everything your parents told you? I bet even those who do, still question God's existence at some point in time. One can just opt to believe in God, because it's an avenue to give of one's love a bit without unpleasant repercussions. Who knows? It's a choice, that's all. It doesn't hurt anyone as long as it's personal, and one can still accept and learn from the discoveries of man. What's the problem? It does seem to me that those who take great pride in expressing their "practicality" are more judgmental about those who take a leap of faith, than visa versa, fanatics not withstanding.

    Those who claim to know what a person of faith believes, seemingly perceives "holy" books as a training manual that must be followed, and can't grasp any other thought process, perhaps assuming that no one else can either. Surely if such omniscience to dispel God's existence exists in any man, much less anyone on this board, then I would love to hear who it is, and I will happily come to you for comfort instead.

    Praying, which by the way I don't do, may simply be a method of talking either out loud or silently, to bring to the front of the conscious mind an issue which one is bothered by. Maybe hearing it summarized in a vocal plea works as a checklist for ones defenses and outlook in life. If that makes any sense, then I guess it's not as severe as talking to an imaginary friend.
    Is talking to a therapist who has a degree on the wall, but may be a filthy immoral slob of a human being, better? What does one really know about one's therapist? Are those who seek therapy as vapid as those who pray? Who gets to make that decision?
     
  13. Dawkinsrocks

    Dawkinsrocks Well-Known Member

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    If an adult was talking to an imaginary friend we would rightfully be concerned for their sanity.

    In fact, people who pray are talking to an imaginary friend (if you overlook all the nastiness he does) and we should be concerned for their sanity
     
  14. bododie

    bododie New Member

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    That's odd. I think the bain of human existence are those who think they know something that they can't prove, state it as fact, and in essence consider themselves more intelligent human beings. Also, what nastiness has "he" done that you can prove. If "he" has done any harm, then "he" must exist. Empty lives tend to point the finger at others for their failures. It isn't a God thing, it's a "man" thing. In that event, even talking to an imaginary friend would be preferable to talking to a real person who thinks they know something that no other human being in the history of man has been able to prove, and state their opinion as fact. That is dealing with ignorance, which is even more pitiful than insanity.
     
  15. Dr.Who

    Dr.Who Well-Known Member

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    Let's try this one.

    If the law of cause and effect is true then the action of every particle in the whole natural universe (the whole total system) is the result of the effect that impacted it. So every atom (or even every subatomic particle) moving in a particular direction does so because of every atom(s) that just hit it. The universe is one giant pool table with every motion being perfectly predicted by all the motions that occurred previously. Every single event in the natural universe is explicable.

    If there were any events that were not explicable then they would fall outside of the realm of what is natural. "If necessities of thought force us to allow to any one thing any degree of independence from the Total System--if any one thing makes good a claim to be on its own, to be something more than an expression of the character of Nature as a whole-then we have abandoned Naturalism. For by Naturalism we mean the doctrine that only Nature--the whole interlocked system--exists. And if that were true, every thing and event would, if we knew enough, be explicable without remainder [] as a necessary product of the system."

    But our very science tells us that there are parts of the universe that are not products only of their causes. Randomness does exist in the universe and the actions of subatomic particles can not be explained completely. Science says that if our knowledge ever advanced enough to observe any particle clearly then we could with certainty say where it is or we could say with certainty what it is doing but it is impossible to say both where it is and what it is doing. Knowing where it is is the cause that makes knowing what it is doing uncertain and knowing what it is doing is the cause that makes knowing where it is uncertain. Our observation of the particles changes its where or what in a way that it is forever inexplicable. If we know where it is then what it is doing becomes an event that is outside of the total system of the natural universe. The action of the particle is independent, on its own, something more than what is a function of cause and effect. Science itself makes the claim that the action or the position of the particle is supernatural.

    Now for those of you who did not take a lot of science classes and did not follow that let me ask you. Do you think for yourself? Are your thoughts the result of what you want to think or are your thoughts determined by the actions of all the atoms in the universe? If your thought are independent of the giant pool table that is the universe then naturalism is likewise forced to be abandoned.

    (Some of this is the work of C.S. Lewis)
    http://www.philosophy.uncc.edu/mleldrid/Intro/csl3.html

    And here is an article about the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle
     
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