Question for people who like the Obamacare mandate

[Pandora]

I have to have Car insurance...I have to have homeowners insruance...and no one can say . well I just don't get sick...there is no way that you are not part of the market.

you have to have car insurance IF YOU DRIVE A CAR and you only have to have home owners insurance if you DONT FULLY OWN YOUR HOUSE, otherwise you can be dumb and not have home owners insurance.
Point being, you can decide for yourself if you want to own a home or have the insurance after the house is paid for and you can decide for yourself if you even want to own or drive a car or take the bus.

With the healthcare mandate you have no choice. You will do exactly what your almighty government told you to do, like it or not, agree with it or not.... Unless you are really poor then the government will force other American suckers to pay your way.

 

[PLC1]

you have to have car insurance IF YOU DRIVE A CAR and you only have to have home owners insurance if you DONT FULLY OWN YOUR HOUSE, otherwise you can be dumb and not have home owners insurance.
Point being, you can decide for yourself if you want to own a home or have the insurance after the house is paid for and you can decide for yourself if you even want to own or drive a car or take the bus.

With the healthcare mandate you have no choice. You will do exactly what your almighty government told you to do, like it or not, agree with it or not.... Unless you are really poor then the government will force other American suckers to pay your way.

The reason you have to have car insurance in order to drive is to protect the other drivers. You only have to have liability.
Unless, of course, you still owe on the car, in which case you have to have collision as well in order to protect the lender.

You have to have homeowners if you have a mortgage in order to protect the lender.

In other words, mandatory insurance is there to protect the other guy.

Mandatory health insurance is the same thing. As it stands now, the only recourse an uninsured person has is to go to an emergency room and then simply not pay the bill. The uninsured (around 40 million or so now, no small minority) gets patched together and admitted to the hospital only in a life or death situation. Since there is no free lunch, the rest of us pay one way or another.

In other words, the purpose of mandatory health insurance is to protect the rest of us, just like any other mandatory insurance.

 

[Pandora]

The reason you have to have car insurance in order to drive is to protect the other drivers. You only have to have liability.
Unless, of course, you still owe on the car, in which case you have to have collision as well in order to protect the lender.

You have to have homeowners if you have a mortgage in order to protect the lender.

In other words, mandatory insurance is there to protect the other guy.

Mandatory health insurance is the same thing. As it stands now, the only recourse an uninsured person has is to go to an emergency room and then simply not pay the bill. The uninsured (around 40 million or so now, no small minority) gets patched together and admitted to the hospital only in a life or death situation. Since there is no free lunch, the rest of us pay one way or another.

In other words, the purpose of mandatory health insurance is to protect the rest of us, just like any other mandatory insurance.

The difference is, if I decide not to have health insurance and I get sick... I am the one out of luck not you. I have health insurance and never used it even once in 8 years till this year. It never hurt anyone but me that I never used it for 8 years and it doesnt hurt anyone now that I am using it.

If I drive without insurance on a car I own and crash into you, I can hurt you and your car and if I do not own the car I can hurt who ever lent me the money for the car... Same with a house. So of course the insurance is needed to protect others. Not the same with health insurance. If someone goes to the emergency room without paying the bill, hunt them down, garnish their wages exc. Also refuse to see them for stubbed toes exc. I have a friend who went to the emergency room with a stubbed toe and my sons father went for a rash he had over 3 months. Stop that and you save money, hunt them down and garnish their wages and they will stop going for stupid stuff

 

[PLC1]

The difference is, if I decide not to have health insurance and I get sick... I am the one out of luck not you.

If that were true, then there would be no case for a mandate. If we're willing to simply let people die if they can't afford care, then we have no reason to mandate insurance. Since most of us don't want to live in such a society, we have a right to insist that everyone pay their share.

You do realize that your premiums are more than they would be if health care providers didn't have to pay for the uninsured, don't you?

I have health insurance and never used it even once in 8 years till this year. It never hurt anyone but me that I never used it for 8 years and it doesnt hurt anyone now that I am using it.

I've had car insurance for over 50 years, and haven't had an accident an all that time. I also seldom use health insurance. Does that mean I don't need it?

If I drive without insurance on a car I own and crash into you, I can hurt you and your car and if I do not own the car I can hurt who ever lent me the money for the car... Same with a house. So of course the insurance is needed to protect others. Not the same with health insurance

But, it is the same with health insurance. The uninsured are costing the rest of us, just as the uninsured driver is costing the rest of us, and the uninsured home owner would cost the rest of us. We all pay for the uninsured, including you. Don't you get tired of footing the bill for deadbeats?

 

[Pandora]

If that were true, then there would be no case for a mandate. If we're willing to simply let people die if they can't afford care, then we have no reason to mandate insurance. Since most of us don't want to live in such a society, we have a right to insist that everyone pay their share.

You do realize that your premiums are more than they would be if health care providers didn't have to pay for the uninsured, don't you?





I've had car insurance for over 50 years, and haven't had an accident an all that time. I also seldom use health insurance. Does that mean I don't need it?



But, it is the same with health insurance. The uninsured are costing the rest of us, just as the uninsured driver is costing the rest of us, and the uninsured home owner would cost the rest of us. We all pay for the uninsured, including you. Don't you get tired of footing the bill for deadbeats?

Assuming the only one you can hurt is yourself then it’s up to you if you need it or not, that doesn’t really work with car insurance where it does with health insurance. Unlike you, I am not willing to tell you what you must have when only you are affected. And apparently unlike you I do expect people to be responsible. Of course there are always rare cases where government might have to come in and pay the bill but it’s not enough of a problem to force all Americans to have governments boot on their throat like this obamacare offers.

And yes I realize about the insurance. I am upset that they claim its part of my salary but do not give me the choice to get it in cash, I am stuck taking it as insurance when I would much rather have the 900 dollars a month.



I think you are a pretty smart guy so it confuses me that you think obamacare is going to make deadbeats pay. All it’s going to do is make more dead beats that go to the doctor even more than they currently do. Poor and lower income people are going to be exempt from paying and you will be the sucker who pays more than you are now but the added bonus for society is that dead beats won’t be called dead beats anymore, they will just be like everyone else except they still won’t be paying for it. Well, you probably won’t be the one paying more since you are already retired and on a fixed income. Any American who is productive will be the sucker who pays more. Maybe that’s why it’s all ok with you? You won’t be the sucker???

 

[PLC1]

Assuming the only one you can hurt is yourself then it’s up to you if you need it or not, that doesn’t really work with car insurance where it does with health insurance. Unlike you, I am not willing to tell you what you must have when only you are affected. And apparently unlike you I do expect people to be responsible. Of course there are always rare cases where government might have to come in and pay the bill but it’s not enough of a problem to force all Americans to have governments boot on their throat like this obamacare offers.

And yes I realize about the insurance. I am upset that they claim its part of my salary but do not give me the choice to get it in cash, I am stuck taking it as insurance when I would much rather have the 900 dollars a month.



I think you are a pretty smart guy so it confuses me that you think obamacare is going to make deadbeats pay. All it’s going to do is make more dead beats that go to the doctor even more than they currently do. Poor and lower income people are going to be exempt from paying and you will be the sucker who pays more than you are now but the added bonus for society is that dead beats won’t be called dead beats anymore, they will just be like everyone else except they still won’t be paying for it. Well, you probably won’t be the one paying more since you are already retired and on a fixed income. Any American who is productive will be the sucker who pays more. Maybe that’s why it’s all ok with you? You won’t be the sucker???

Well, you've kind of broadened out the discussion, now. My point was that the uninsured cost all of us money, and therefore, we should have a right to demand that they become the insured and pay their share. Now, you're talking about the very poor, the people who couldn't afford health insurance at all. The problem with your premise of the very poor will go to the doctor on the public dime is that they already do that. The very poor get health care through Medicaid. Obamacare won't change that.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think that the so called Obamacare is going to do what has to be done, which is to contain costs. I'd like to see a different system altogether, but that isn't likely to happen any time soon. One thing that should bring down costs, however, is the individual mandate.

We really need a universal catastrophic cost program that covers everyone, that requires the individual to pay out of pocket for things like doctor's visits and the like, and that eliminates the need for an individual to have an insurance policy at all. Take that $900 a month you're talking about. Would you be willing to trade it for a policy that costs $150 a month, but that only pays when you have an accident or illness that runs tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars? I would, and I'd be wiling to bet that most employers would gladly trade what they have now for such a plan.

 

[Pandora]

Well, you've kind of broadened out the discussion, now. My point was that the uninsured cost all of us money, and therefore, we should have a right to demand that they become the insured and pay their share. Now, you're talking about the very poor, the people who couldn't afford health insurance at all. The problem with your premise of the very poor will go to the doctor on the public dime is that they already do that. The very poor get health care through Medicaid. Obamacare won't change that.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think that the so called Obamacare is going to do what has to be done, which is to contain costs. I'd like to see a different system altogether, but that isn't likely to happen any time soon. One thing that should bring down costs, however, is the individual mandate.

We really need a universal catastrophic cost program that covers everyone, that requires the individual to pay out of pocket for things like doctor's visits and the like, and that eliminates the need for an individual to have an insurance policy at all. Take that $900 a month you're talking about. Would you be willing to trade it for a policy that costs $150 a month, but that only pays when you have an accident or illness that runs tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars? I would, and I'd be wiling to bet that most employers would gladly trade what they have now for such a plan.

The very poor are not all already on Medicaid or welfare. Some are, mostly people good at fudging numbers are.



Lots of people are very poor but too uneducated or lazy to fill out the proper forms or have no address to have the forms send to. These people go to the emergency room now. So obamacare or mandated insurance coverage for every American wont change a thing. Except that maybe the homeless and clueless and lazy wont have to worry about filling out the form (we hope) there might be more forms in this than in the current system J



And some people who have coverage go to the emergency room now for dumb stuff. A girl who lived with me for almost a year used her medical card to go to the emergency room at least 3 times that I know of for a tooth aches, but never went to the dentist. Someone like her would be covered in obamacare but she still won’t make a dentist appointment, she will wait till her tooth hurts real bad and go to the emergency room and get pain killers. Regulating some of us to death won’t make up for people who won’t be responsible.



Making me pay into obamacare is not a fair way of dealing with her or anyone else that doesn’t have healthcare or uses their government healthcare unwisely.





It reminds me of the peanut butter bans at so many schools. Because some kids (a small percent) are allergic to peanut butter, no one can have any peanut products in the class, the school kitchens are banned from using anything that contains peanuts even though it’s a minuscule percent of people with the allergy.



I agree obamacare won’t contain costs, I actually think it will raise costs.

I think a better plan, if the government must get itself involved in our medical issues is give incentives to people who carry some kind of health care coverage. That could be letting people not have to pay taxes on their health insurance or medical bills they pay or even let people get insurance from company’s in other states. But that won’t solve the problem that some people are dead beats and will never take it upon themselves to get insurance or use their insurance wisely. But then again nothing will do that... so we are back to square one…. Why should I be punished because some people are irresponsible?

 

[PLC1]

The very poor are not all already on Medicaid or welfare. Some are, mostly people good at fudging numbers are.



Lots of people are very poor but too uneducated or lazy to fill out the proper forms or have no address to have the forms send to. These people go to the emergency room now. So obamacare or mandated insurance coverage for every American wont change a thing. Except that maybe the homeless and clueless and lazy wont have to worry about filling out the form (we hope) there might be more forms in this than in the current system

No, Obamacare isn't going to change anything for people like that.

And some people who have coverage go to the emergency room now for dumb stuff. A girl who lived with me for almost a year used her medical card to go to the emergency room at least 3 times that I know of for a tooth aches, but never went to the dentist. Someone like her would be covered in obamacare but she still won’t make a dentist appointment, she will wait till her tooth hurts real bad and go to the emergency room and get pain killers. Regulating some of us to death won’t make up for people who won’t be responsible.

people who do that sort of thing need to be charged for the cost of it. That's just not acceptable. It raises the cost for all of us.

Making me pay into obamacare is not a fair way of dealing with her or anyone else that doesn’t have healthcare or uses their government healthcare unwisely.

You see, the thing is, you already have health care. No one is going to make you pay in to Obamacare. On the other hand, should you lose your job or decide to go into something that doesn't provide insurance, you can get a policy that doesn't exclude "pre existing conditions".

But you'd better wait until the new changes take effect. Insurers still won't cover what they don't have to cover.

It reminds me of the peanut butter bans at so many schools. Because some kids (a small percent) are allergic to peanut butter, no one can have any peanut products in the class, the school kitchens are banned from using anything that contains peanuts even though it’s a minuscule percent of people with the allergy.

yes, that's just silly.

I agree obamacare won’t contain costs, I actually think it will raise costs.

I think it will be a wash, but costs are already unsustainable and increasing fast.

I think a better plan, if the government must get itself involved in our medical issues is give incentives to people who carry some kind of health care coverage. That could be letting people not have to pay taxes on their health insurance or medical bills they pay or even let people get insurance from company’s in other states. But that won’t solve the problem that some people are dead beats and will never take it upon themselves to get insurance or use their insurance wisely. But then again nothing will do that... so we are back to square one…. Why should I be punished because some people are irresponsible?

That might help, but it won't solve the problems. If you work for an employer that provides insurance, you don't pay taxes on the benefit. If you have to purchase an individual policy, you pay taxes on the money it costs. That isn't fair, and should be changed.

As for selling insurance across state lines, that's just a myth. Insurers can sell in any state, whether they have an office there or not. That question keeps coming up, I suppose as a distraction from the real issues.

 

[dogtowner]

I have to have Car insurance...I have to have homeowners insruance...and no one can say . well I just don't get sick...there is no way that you are not part of the market.

car insurance ? no you don't. homeowners ? no you don't. it is possible to pay for your own healthcare.
swing and a miss.

 

[dogtowner]

Isn't that the federal government solving the problem? It doesn't sound a whole lot different from "Obamacare"

the worst harm of government being involved is how they micromanage it. that gets worse with Obamacare. This is about eliminating that.

and, don't insurance companies have to compete today? The idea that insurance can't be sold across state lines simply is not true. You do not have to buy insurance from a company that has an office in your state. Even if it were true, a big state like California would still have many companies competing for business.

yes they compete in contracting with companies seeking their services. there is no competition with Medicare/Medicaid and thats the problem. Of course insurance companies sell in other states but the policies have to comply with that state's requirements. different states have different requirements which is why costs vary. and companies may not have to have an office but they do have to be approved.This fact is curiously ignored in Obamacare, I suppose they were just waiting for it to come up with exchanges. Oddly I think there are inordinately fewer copan ies competing there due to state requirements which make it harder to make a profit, this keeps smaller players out.

I'd start with Medicare, and make a couple of changes:
Instead of paying 80% of nearly everything, as they do now, I'd pay on a sliding scale, starting with zero and going to 100%, depending on the total cost to the individual. We would all pay for basic care, in other words, but would get a helping hand if we had to have an expensive operation. Then, I'd gradually lower the age until everyone was covered by what would amount to a catastrophic cost insurance policy. Everyone would have medical care, yet the individual would have an incentive to control costs.

does nothing to bend the cost curve.. if that matters to you.

Not perfect, but far and away better than what we have now.

well people will hate it but thats probably a given no matter what.

 

[Aus22]

If you are getting old, you might need health care soon. I am glad I live in a country where it is free.

 

[dogtowner]

If you are getting old, you might need health care soon. I am glad I live in a country where it is free.

you do realize its not "free" right ?

 

[Pandora]

No, Obamacare isn't going to change anything for people like that.

Who do you think its for? I think I read that it was 15 percent of the population does not have health care… if not these then who? That’s if we are not talking about illegals

people who do that sort of thing need to be charged for the cost of it. That's just not acceptable. It raises the cost for all of us.

That would be making them responsible and accountable and you can’t make people either…

You see, the thing is, you already have health care. No one is going to make you pay in to Obamacare. On the other hand, should you lose your job or decide to go into something that doesn't provide insurance, you can get a policy that doesn't exclude "pre existing conditions".

Ah but the moment Obama care is implemented I won’t have my health care, its already clear they will drop health care and go to the public option. I bet every government agency does. We currently have something with our insurance called the wellness clinic. WE have had it over 15 years but it closes in June and its clear its mostly due to obamacare, hopefully the SC will squish it like a bug and the clinic won’t have to close. It’s as close to a doctor as I want to get.

But you'd better wait until the new changes take effect. Insurers still won't cover what they don't have to cover.

Sure they will, you just might have to pay more for it. And that is fair. If I want better or more coverage I pay more for it.

yes, that's just silly.

Silly but it’s a small version of what is happening nation wide. A small few don’t have insurance so every frickin American has to be forced to have it because a small few are irresponsible.

I think it will be a wash, but costs are already unsustainable and increasing fast.

. We wont know till its here and done and then all I can say is I told you so but will it really matter?

That might help, but it won't solve the problems. If you work for an employer that provides insurance, you don't pay taxes on the benefit. If you have to purchase an individual policy, you pay taxes on the money it costs. That isn't fair, and should be changed.

Im for lowing taxes anyway we can J

As for selling insurance across state lines, that's just a myth. Insurers can sell in any state, whether they have an office there or not. That question keeps coming up, I suppose as a distraction from the real issues.

You are the first person to say we can get our insurance over state lines, where are you getting your info?

 

[Pandora]

If you are getting old, you might need health care soon. I am glad I live in a country where it is free.

Nothing is free You just may not be personally paying for it but someone is...

 

[GenSeneca]

We all pay for the uninsured, including you. Don't you get tired of footing the bill for deadbeats?

Mandating that everyone have HC insurance does not solve this. There are exemptions and subsidies for the "poor", meaning we will continue 'footing the bill for deadbeats'.