Solution to the oil problem

[Federal Farmer]

That's peachy! Whatever works with you is fine as long as: 1. You don't ask me to pay higher electrical costs to give you rebates. 2. you pay for you own products, as in you don't get to not pay taxes, I must pay, just because you can afford something I can not.

Andy, it's readily apparent to anyone with an above room temperature IQ that you have NOT done your research on this topic, and are simply running on emotion. Cool your jets, DO your research, and come back when you have something substantive to add to the conversation.

Oh, and the "poor, poor, pitiful me" routine is really getting old. Why don't you just join up with the Obama crowd and get on Welfare, Food Stamps, and every other government program so that you can claim to be "oppressed by the 'evil' white man" while you're at it. If you can't afford it now, that's not my fault, it's YOURS. I've busted my ass my whole life to build what I've got, and I started out with exactly NOTHING except my parents love and best wishes, so "tell it to Jesus, 'cause the Chaplin's on leave, and I don't give a damn". NOW, pull yourself up by your OWN boot straps and QUIT WHINING!

Oh, and one other thing DIP****SKI, I didn't "steal" a damned thing. I bought, paid for, and INSTALLED my own damned system. There WERE no incentives or anything else of that type for solar systems back then. If you wanted one, you paid for it yourself, so you can take your scurrilous insinuations, turn 'em sideways, and shove 'em straight up your candy ass!

 

[Sihouette]

So with all this solar and heat energy just dissipating off millions of acres of boiling-hot arid lands in the Southwest, and our possession of Fresnel lenses and the SIMPLICITY of steam turbine technology for generating electricity...what are we doing? To develop large-scale solar/steam power plants would cost a fraction of coal-generators or nuclear. Why the delay?

Answer: The Politics of BigOil Monopoly. The sun is impossible to regulate and any jerk can reproduce this simple technology in their backyard. Problem for BigOil? The price cannot be grossly manipulated because if that starts, smaller companies and backyard folk will just set up their own systems. In short, this simple form of alternative technology, along with wind and geothermal would put BigOil out of business...especially the instant electric cars replace gas ones...

They know it and they're going to do anything they can to suppress it.

 

[Dr.Who]

So with all this solar and heat energy just dissipating off millions of acres of boiling-hot arid lands in the Southwest, and our possession of Fresnel lenses and the SIMPLICITY of steam turbine technology for generating electricity...what are we doing? To develop large-scale solar/steam power plants would cost a fraction of coal-generators or nuclear. Why the delay?

Answer: The Politics of BigOil Monopoly. The sun is impossible to regulate and any jerk can reproduce this simple technology in their backyard. Problem for BigOil? The price cannot be grossly manipulated because if that starts, smaller companies and backyard folk will just set up their own systems. In short, this simple form of alternative technology, along with wind and geothermal would put BigOil out of business...especially the instant electric cars replace gas ones...

They know it and they're going to do anything they can to suppress it.

Oh that is just a silly conspiracy theory.

Anyone who wants to can just go and build alternative energy technology. If it is profitable then someone will do it and if it is not profitable then no one will. Simple.

Alternative tech is just not in the place where it can compete. Wait until the price of oil goes up more. Then I hope you are right that we can make enough energy with alternatives - cause it might not be feasable.

 

[Sihouette]

Now don't obfuscate by simple-thinking...you know it's more complex than that..

Keyword: largescale. When we are talking about a LARGESCALE shift in energy production with widespread and centralized plants of solar/steam, we're talking about MAJORLY cutting into BigOil profits...

THAT is what they are up in arms about. They aren't worried...per se...about Joe Backyard power producer...yet..but the real implications are that BigOil doesn't want a power type that cannot be easily manipulated.

Refining crude into a useable source of energy for say, cars, is a complex process that neither you nor I can replicate in our backyards. In fact, refineries are tightly-controlled operations. Anything tightly controlled and complex to produce is subject to the dangers of price fixing via a monopoly.

Steam generation is like child's play...anyone can do it with a fresnel lens, water and a generator which is propelled by a directed flow of steam. That's it. Even if BigOil erected and controlled large producing and distribution centers of steam energy, they couldn't fix prices like they do now. If they raised KWH high enough, Joe Backyard could start up his own neighborhood power station with ease. This cannot be done at all with nuclear, coal or oil refining/conversion to current. And hence BigOil's pushing of these exact types of dirty and dangerous (read: complex) forms of energy production.

It's the POLITICS of alternative energy that's keeping it from happening. BigOil runs politics. Although, Kudos to Congress recently for standing up to their shortsided and stupid hopes to drill for the hard-to-refine pittance that exists on US soil.

 

[GenSeneca]

Keyword: largescale. When we are talking about a LARGESCALE shift in energy production with widespread and centralized plants of solar/steam, we're talking about MAJORLY cutting into BigOil profits.

Big Oil does NOT produce electricity. They are not competing in the same market... Once again you are being corrected on your fallacy and once again you will ignore facts that contradict your personal beliefs.

All you have to do is tweak your Conspiracy slightly and blame "Big Coal" because they DO compete with Alternatives in electricity generation... as I have told you before.

Unfortunately, "Big Coal" hasn't the wealth or power of "Big Oil" so its not even plausible that "Big Coal" could be suppressing alt. tech.

 

[PLC1]

It seems to me that the various governments, federal, state, and local, are the only entities that have the ability to stop the development of any power plant, whether it is alternative energy or traditional.

If there is a conspiracy, which I doubt, then we need to look at the public sector to find it.

How can big oil, or big coal, or big any other kind of business stop a venture capitalist from building a solar power plant in the desert?

 

[Andy]

blaw blaw (nothing responding to the evidence given) blaw blaw

Thanks, next time say something worth reading.

Oh, and the "poor, poor, pitiful me" routine is really getting old. Why don't you just join up with the Obama crowd and get on Welfare, Food Stamps, and every other government program so that you can claim to be "oppressed by the 'evil' white man" while you're at it. If you can't afford it now, that's not my fault, it's YOURS. I've busted my ass my whole life to build what I've got, and I started out with exactly NOTHING except my parents love and best wishes, so "tell it to Jesus, 'cause the Chaplin's on leave, and I don't give a damn". NOW, pull yourself up by your OWN boot straps and QUIT WHINING!

Join Obama and get welfare and food stamps? Which one of is getting a federally mandated rebate? Not me! Oddly it sounds to me like you are the one whining. I mean... you brought up Jesus and your parents in a debate about solar panels? How about you come up with something responding to the topic at hand eh?

Oh, and one other thing DIP****SKI, I didn't "steal" a damned thing. I bought, paid for, and INSTALLED my own damned system. There WERE no incentives or anything else of that type for solar systems back then. If you wanted one, you paid for it yourself, so you can take your scurrilous insinuations, turn 'em sideways, and shove 'em straight up your candy ass!

Oh wow, the logic of your gripping reason is convincing me! If you are getting money from my taxes or my electric bill, you can't twist and turn it any way you wish, that's just legalized stealing. If the government pays for half of your solar panel purchase, that's tax money I had to pay for you to get. That's immoral, it's unconstitutional, it's flat out wrong. As far as I'm concerned, that is nothing less than legalized theft.

You can curse and swear at me, and say all the crap you want. When I purchase something, no one has to pay taxes for me to break even on it. You on the other hand... Go sign up for food stamps.

 

[Andy]

Great up to this point, and given that the average electric bill in this area is between $250 and $300 per month, $75 a month is a $125-$225 savings. Even if you have to pay for it yourself, with no grants or incentives, the $40,000.00 system you propose still only costs you $166.66 a month, which is still a substantial savings over the current bill.

The closest thing to a $40,000 system I could find was a AEE-Solar kit for $37,500. This kit is a 5.44 kW system, which would produce roughly 775 kWh/month during the peak sun season. 775 kWh times 9.86¢ (National ave. kWh cost) is $76.42 saved. So, you are spending $166.66, in order to produce a maximum of 775 kWh which would cost you $76.42 from the grid. Catch that? You spent $166.66 to save $76.42.

This output assumes: You have all the panels at a perfect angle, there is no dust or obstructions of any kind, and the panels are bran spankin new. Keep in mind that every year, power production will decrease by 1%. After ten years, 679 kWh, for a savings of $66.95 on the peak month.

Plus, the average household consumes about 30 kWh/day. This setup produces 25 kWh/day at it's peak. So you'll still have an electric bill coming in. In hotter climates, 50 kWh/day is the average, so you'll still have a very large bill coming in.

But no longer than it would if you were to borrow $40,000 for a new car, so that doesn't matter. I find it absolutely amazing that people will readily go out and spend $30-40k for a new car and never really think about the cost, but they turn into blithering idiots when they talk about spending the same amount of money to power their own home. What are you, APARTMENT DWELLERS???

I would never spend $40K on a new car. That's insane unless I have money instead of a mattress to sleep on at night, and burn cash to cook food on the grill. I own my own home, my electric bill is $50 in the middle of summer, and $30 in the dead of winter. If I ever spend more than $400 for electricity in a years time, it's been a really hot summer.

We're talking about adding 12-15% to the construction costs of a brand new home here, and NOT having an electric bill, EVER. If you're building a new $225,000 home, and adding another $30,000 to it, assuming a 30 year fixed at 5.75%, you're only talking about adding $175.00 a month, which, based on the average electric bills around here, means that you're COMING OUT AHEAD between $75 and $125 a month, EVERY month. If you're REALLY smart, you'll take that money, EVERY month, and throw it in with your mortgage and have it applied to the principle and your home will be paid off somewhere between 25 and 28 years instead of 30. HELL, the interest savings alone are worth that! If you applied the $75 a month to your mortgage, you'd save $38,077 in interest alone, and if you applied the $125 a month, you'd save $57,677!!! And NONE of that is counting the CHECK (as opposed to a BILL) that you'll be getting from your local electric company for providing power TO the grid instead of buying it FROM the grid.

Ok so for $30,000 you are going off grid. That would require a $6,000 battery backup. So the closest thing to the $24,000 remaining would be Evergreen 3.68 kW kit for $23,300. This would produce roughly 577 kWh a month on average, in a high-sunlight area like Tucson, AZ. At the national average rate of 9.86¢/kWh, that's $56.89. Catch that? Your spending $175/mo to save what would cost you $56.89/mo.

Keep in mind the average home uses 30 kWh a day while this system produces 19 kWh, so be ready to cut your life style.

And I see no justification in the Constitution for Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, Food Stamps, WIC, Section 8 housing, HUD, the Department of the Interior, the Department of Education, the Department of Health and Human Services, the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Commerce, the Department of Labor, the Department of Energy, the Department of Veteran Affairs, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, or the Department of just about anything else you'd care to name EXCEPT the Department of Defense, the Department of State, the Department of Transportation, and the Department of the Treasury, so how about we cut the "poor me" and "immoral subsidies" routine and get off the backs of a program that actually SAVES the government far more money than it spends.

It doesn't save the government far more money when they have to take money from me, to pay people like you. Further, you are right, very few of those are valid under our constitution. This means we need to cut them, not add more unconstitutional programs.

Do you have ANY idea what it costs to build a brand new coal fired power plant? Do you have any idea to what extent the DOE grants "immoral subsidies" to power companies so that they can build one of these new power plants? First things first. The new Alliant power plant in Wisconsin is projected to be over $1.2 BILLION dollars for their new 300 megawatt plant. And that's just to BUILD it, not to operate it. The proposed AMP Ohio power plant is currently projected to be near, if not over $3 BILLION dollars for a 1000 megawatt plant. Who foots the bill for this, YOU DO! The DOE gives "loans" (at unbelievably low interest rates) to these power companies to build their plants, using YOUR tax dollars, and the only thing you get for your money is higher taxes and an electric bill. At least with "on the grid" home generated power, the people who are providing the power to the grid are actually giving YOU something for your money, in the way of your local power company NOT having to build a new plant for BILLIONS of dollars.

In order to not have to build a new power plant, everyone would have to buy an expensive solar kit which none would do without rebates and government hand outs. 300 Million rough population, times $40K for a small solar kit, equals $12 Trillion dollars, $6 Trillion would come from my pocket in the form of tax subsidies and higher electric bills. Of course the biggest electrical users are business and Al Gore, so we'd still need a Billion dollar power plants in order to have jobs.

So option A: we build a 3 Billion dollar power plant, and everyone just pays for their own power. B: We build a billion dollar power plant and have a $6.1 trillion dollar tax / subsidy scheme where the entire public pays for expensive solar kits that will need replaced in 20 years max.

I vote for plan A.

As far as the system needing repair, again, SO WHAT? Isn't your $40,000 car going to need maintenance and repair? Doesn't your existing home need maintenance and repair (unless you really ARE an apartment dweller). You see, this is what we call a STRAWMAN argument, and not even a very good one at that.

The point of a car or home is to provide transportation and shelter. Therefore repairs are acceptable and expected expenses.

The point of a solar panel kit is to save money. Repairs and upkeep expensive figure into that economic equation and are completely valid points.

 

[Andy]

So with all this solar and heat energy just dissipating off millions of acres of boiling-hot arid lands in the Southwest, and our possession of Fresnel lenses and the SIMPLICITY of steam turbine technology for generating electricity...what are we doing? To develop large-scale solar/steam power plants would cost a fraction of coal-generators or nuclear. Why the delay?

The only problem is, you are wrong. If the cost was a fraction, they would be everywhere. The cost isn't a small fraction. Nuclear power costs about 2¢ a kWh. Coal, around 4¢ a kWh. Solar plants still cost anywhere from 10¢ to 14¢ a kWh. Four to six times the price of conventional power. Figure it out. Go get some education. Learn something... or... ANYTHING about the topics you blab about.

Answer: The Politics of BigOil Monopoly. The sun is impossible to regulate and any jerk can reproduce this simple technology in their backyard. Problem for BigOil? The price cannot be grossly manipulated because if that starts, smaller companies and backyard folk will just set up their own systems. In short, this simple form of alternative technology, along with wind and geothermal would put BigOil out of business...especially the instant electric cars replace gas ones...

There are electric cars on the market. BigOil has not, and could not, tried to stop them. If you wish to get one feel free. Gas cars are cheaper from every angle except fuel, and are more useful with fewer limitations than electric. As I said, if you want one, feel free.

Are they a problem for BigOil? Of course not. If I power my home via the sun... every plastic thing I buy, every chemical based on oil, every rubber or propane tank I use with my grill... is an oil product, and an expanding market. In other words, it's no problem for Big Oil at all. They couldn't possibly care less.

Unbelievable that someone can be told the truth a million times and never learn a thing. I feel like I'm debating a 10 year olds logic.

 

[foggedinn]

Interesting thread. A lot of people posted their views. Having worked for the Southern Company for a couple of decades, it's actually a subject I know a little about. My former employer liked to keep us educated about trends in the industry.

Too bad these discusions seem to degenerate into an us vs. them debate. This isn't the sort of thing where either side "wins". As soon as either side wins the debate, we all lose. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong. Just in different areas.

Alternative energy sources are great where they are feasible. They just aren't as economically feasible as some of their proponents would like to think. Just because something is scientifically posible doesn't mean it is economically feasible. But, as Solomon said, consider the ant. Over many centuries, the Dutch managed to make half of their country using wind power.

 

[Federal Farmer]

Thanks, next time say something worth reading.

I tried that, but your reading comprehension is so low that you couldn't grasp it.

Join Obama and get welfare and food stamps? Which one of is getting a federally mandated rebate? Not me!

Hate to be the one to tell you, but you DO get "federally mandated rebates" every year when you get your tax return, as opposed to me, who actually PAYS taxes every year, well into the 5 figures.

Oh wow, the logic of your gripping reason is convincing me! If you are getting money from my taxes or my electric bill, you can't twist and turn it any way you wish, that's just legalized stealing. If the government pays for half of your solar panel purchase, that's tax money I had to pay for you to get. That's immoral, it's unconstitutional, it's flat out wrong. As far as I'm concerned, that is nothing less than legalized theft.

Let's try this again, I bought, paid for, and installed my OWN system, there were no "rebates" or grants back then. When I build my new house, I'm going to be paying for everything myself AGAIN, but as much as I pay in taxes, so that YOU can get you're little tax return every year, if they WANT to give me a "rebate" for it, there's nothing "unconstitutional" about it, it's MY MONEY, and I'll TAKE IT. Here's another cluepon for you, if you're not paying at least $10,000 a year in federal taxes, you're not even carrying your own weight, which means that you're living on MY money, so you can just STFU little boy.

You can curse and swear at me, and say all the crap you want. When I purchase something, no one has to pay taxes for me to break even on it. You on the other hand... Go sign up for food stamps.

Yes I can curse and swear at you, just like I do with a lot of mindless young punks today who think they know something, who think that they're "paying their own way" when they're doing nothing of the kind, in the hopes that maybe, just maybe, they'll pull their heads out of their fourth points of contact. I've probably paid more in taxes in my nearly 40 year working life than you'll ever earn in your entire life, so don't even try playing your silly little games with me, I'll just take your lunch money and send you runing and crying back home to your mommy.

 

[Federal Farmer]

The closest thing to a $40,000 system I could find was a AEE-Solar kit for $37,500. This kit is a 5.44 kW system, which would produce roughly 775 kWh/month during the peak sun season. 775 kWh times 9.86¢ (National ave. kWh cost) is $76.42 saved. So, you are spending $166.66, in order to produce a maximum of 775 kWh which would cost you $76.42 from the grid. Catch that? You spent $166.66 to save $76.42.

Like I said before, do more research. The system we're going to be putting on our new home is a 4200 watt, 19 kWh, 48 volt "on the grid" system (including the battery back-up) with solar tracking, plus 2 wind turbines for a total INSTALLED price of about $35,000, and it was specifically designed for me, for our home, based on it's location, by a friend who happens to be an Electrical Engineer, who also does a lot of work for my firm. The panels have a 25 year output warranty, and are some of the best available (Kyocera), so I'm not going to have to worry about replacing them in my lifetime unless a tornado picks up a tree and throws it on them, and that's what we have insurance for. Oh, and BTW, just to REALLY hair-lip you, since I own a Design/Build firm, I'll be having my people do the install, so it's really not going to cost me the whole $35,000.00 as that was based on normal installation costs.

Also, you've completely ignored the facts of our LOCAL POWER BILLS. You can't sit there and talk about national averages, or what you're spending in your crackerbox condo with your $50 a month in the summer and $30 in the winter (my BUTT) electric bill, and even attempt to compare that to a 3200 sq. ft. home with a wife (that you don't have) 2 grown children (that you don't have) and 5 grandchildren (that you don't have) coming over all the time to visit. You also failed to mention if you have any gas appliances like a water heater, gas stove, gas heat, gas dryer, etc., so you're not even comparing apples and grapefruit, you're trying to compare apples and whales.

I would never spend $40K on a new car. That's insane unless I have money instead of a mattress to sleep on at night, and burn cash to cook food on the grill.

Well, if your idea of the American dream is to drive a rusted out sh1t-box 2 seater, or some econo box that'll get you sent to the hospital if a bicycle hits you, and live in a trailer, that's your decision, and being a young man, I can understand it, to a point, as I did the same thing when I was single, but when you have a family, safety and a REAL home becomes a more important factor, and you can't find a new, safe, full size car for much under $40,000.00 (I drive the Aspen and my wife has a Crossfire), and you can't raise a family in a 2 bdrm cracker box trailer, so again, apples and whales.

It doesn't save the government far more money when they have to take money from me, to pay people like you.

Nobody is taking anything from you, and like I said earlier, if you're not paying at least 5 figures a year in federal taxes like I've been doing for DECADES, you're living on MY dime, so you can take your poor mouthing and shove it.

 

[Andy]

I tried that, but your reading comprehension is so low that you couldn't grasp it.

You still didn't make a logical or factually based response. You are losing your own claim.

Hate to be the one to tell you, but you DO get "federally mandated rebates" every year when you get your tax return, as opposed to me, who actually PAYS taxes every year, well into the 5 figures.

No, I didn't. I had to write a check out the government last year. So you lose again.

Let's try this again, I bought, paid for, and installed my OWN system, there were no "rebates" or grants back then. When I build my new house, I'm going to be paying for everything myself AGAIN, but as much as I pay in taxes, so that YOU can get you're little tax return every year, if they WANT to give me a "rebate" for it, there's nothing "unconstitutional" about it, it's MY MONEY, and I'll TAKE IT. Here's another cluepon for you, if you're not paying at least $10,000 a year in federal taxes, you're not even carrying your own weight, which means that you're living on MY money, so you can just STFU little boy.

Don't be a self absorbed fool. I didn't get any little tax return. Here you are whining about my "reading comprehension" when you abviously didn't understand anything I typed. Shall I start linking the dictionary to each word I say so you get it?

Let's try this again... try and keep up sparky. Quoting myself:

"If you are getting money from my taxes or my electric bill, you can't twist and turn it any way you wish, that's just legalized stealing."

Did you note the work "if"? That means when the following statement is not true, then this doesn't apply. If only applies when the statement is true. Are you Billy Clinton and need to define "IF" before you figure this out?

IF: you paid for it your self with no rebate or government funding or support or checks from the utility company... then, the statement made doesn't apply to you.

IF: the government gave you a rebate, or the utilities gave you move for your purchase, then the statement made does apply to you.

For further help on "reading comprehension", please use dictionary.com before posting more stupid, foolish, unsupportable idiocy on the forum.

Yes I can curse and swear at you, just like I do with a lot of mindless young punks today who think they know something, who think that they're "paying their own way" when they're doing nothing of the kind, in the hopes that maybe, just maybe, they'll pull their heads out of their fourth points of contact. I've probably paid more in taxes in my nearly 40 year working life than you'll ever earn in your entire life, so don't even try playing your silly little games with me, I'll just take your lunch money and send you runing and crying back home to your mommy.

So you are justifying being an idiot. Well more power to you Forest. Now I know how William F. Buckley felt when he had to deal with mental midgets like James Carville.

Again, not a single response to the evidence given. Of course I no longer expect a decent response from you, and you have NOT disappointed me.

 

[Andy]

The system we're going to be putting on our new home is a 4200 watt, 19 kWh, 48 volt "on the grid" system (including the battery back-up) with solar tracking, plus 2 wind turbines for a total INSTALLED price of about $35,000, and it was specifically designed for me, for our home, based on it's location, by a friend who happens to be an Electrical Engineer, who also does a lot of work for my firm. The panels have a 25 year output warranty, and are some of the best available (Kyocera), so I'm not going to have to worry about replacing them in my lifetime unless a tornado picks up a tree and throws it on them, and that's what we have insurance for. Oh, and BTW, just to REALLY hair-lip you, since I own a Design/Build firm, I'll be having my people do the install, so it's really not going to cost me the whole $35,000.00 as that was based on normal installation costs.

You know, when you first started posting, you seemed like a nice guy. But now you just act like a grown up baby. And you have flip-flopped more than the democrats on Iraq, or drilling for oil.

In post 44 you said:

If you really want to make your system pay for itself, stay "on the grid" and have it set up where your excess energy, after your batteries are fully charged, goes back INTO the grid, and your local power company will actually pay you for the energy you're providing.

Indicating a support for other utility customers paying you.

Then in post 49 you said:

The tax incentives are there to help offset the cost of installation... ...I get a tax write-off for all of my mileage, and all of the equipment I have in my business, is that somehow "immoral" since my employees don't get those incentives? Hardly, I provide a service for the country by providing employment for many people (it keeps them off of welfare, food stamps, WIC, and out of Section 8 housing), and the government is willing to provide me with an incentive for providing that service.

Again, attempting to justify an unequal tax system that rewards some and punishes others.

In post 60, you said:

We're talking about adding 12-15% to the construction costs of a brand new home here... ....If you applied the $75 a month to your mortgage, you'd save $38,077 in interest alone, and if you applied the $125 a month, you'd save $57,677!!! And NONE of that is counting the CHECK (as opposed to a BILL) that you'll be getting from your local electric company for providing power TO the grid instead of buying it FROM the grid.

This time claiming everyone can do it, and at the same time supporting raising everyone else's electric bill to support your purchase.

Then in post 61, you start the personal insults:

Oh, and one other thing DIP****SKI, I didn't "steal" a damned thing. I bought, paid for, and INSTALLED my own damned system.

Ironically claiming you didn't get a rebate or subsidy, which means my comment wasn't directed at you. Yet, you get all bent and start acting like a 10-year-old who was told he had to do his homework.

Now you claim you paid for everything yourself with no rebates or subsidies, but then you openly state that you own your own contruction firm, with an electrical engineer to design your own system, and you'll have your employees build your home.

So which is it... are you getting rebates or not? Is the electric company going to pay you by raising other peoples bills or not? Are you being subsidized or not? Can everyone afford this solar system or just owners of construction firms with friends who are electrical engineers? ... I just can't see why everyone doesn't own a construction firm and have elctrical engineer friends to build solar systems for them....

Also, you've completely ignored the facts of our LOCAL POWER BILLS. You can't sit there and talk about national averages, or what you're spending in your crackerbox condo with your $50 a month in the summer and $30 in the winter (my BUTT) electric bill, and even attempt to compare that to a 3200 sq. ft. home with a wife (that you don't have) 2 grown children (that you don't have) and 5 grandchildren (that you don't have) coming over all the time to visit. You also failed to mention if you have any gas appliances like a water heater, gas stove, gas heat, gas dryer, etc., so you're not even comparing apples and grapefruit, you're trying to compare apples and whales.

You can always tell a intellectually bankrupt person when they start off with personal attacks, especially when they have no clue who they are talking to, and just make broad assumptions. No, I didn't. In fact I included that in every calculation.

I quote myself:

The closest thing to a $40,000 system I could find was a AEE-Solar kit for $37,500. This kit is a 5.44 kW system, which would produce roughly 775 kWh/month during the peak sun season. 775 kWh times 9.86¢ (National ave. kWh cost) is $76.42 saved. So, you are spending $166.66, in order to produce a maximum of 775 kWh which would cost you $76.42 from the grid. Catch that? You spent $166.66 to save $76.42.

I used the national average because it's what most of use pay. If you have a special location, feel free to tell me. Texas charges on average, 9.16¢/kWh.

Let us pretend that my electric bill is $200/mo. My system would produce 775 kWh/month. That would reduce my electric grid usage by... 775 kWh a month which is $76.42. My new lower electric bill would be... $123.58. So... again I spent $166.66, to reduce my electric bill by $76.42. Moving on.

Well, if your idea of the American dream is to drive a rusted out sh1t-box 2 seater, or some econo box that'll get you sent to the hospital if a bicycle hits you, and live in a trailer, that's your decision, and being a young man, I can understand it, to a point, as I did the same thing when I was single, but when you have a family, safety and a REAL home becomes a more important factor, and you can't find a new, safe, full size car for much under $40,000.00 (I drive the Aspen and my wife has a Crossfire), and you can't raise a family in a 2 bdrm cracker box trailer, so again, apples and whales.

I'll tell you what isn't my American dream. It's not to get a bunch of stuff and objects, and have everyone else pay for those objects, and after living for 70 years turn into a bitter old crotchety man who comes across like a 10 year-old having a temper tantrum and thinking he's somehow 'owed' something. Some people don't mature their whole life. Grow up.

Nobody is taking anything from you, and like I said earlier, if you're not paying at least 5 figures a year in federal taxes like I've been doing for DECADES, you're living on MY dime, so you can take your poor mouthing and shove it.

IF (<--- note the word 'if') ...the federal government says it needs money to spend on alternative energy sources such as rebates which go to idiots with solar panels... then yeah, they are taking from me. I pay tax just like everyone else.

 

[Federal Farmer]

You still didn't make a logical or factually based response. You are losing your own claim.

Not at all, you just haven't made any factual or logical refutations to anything I've said.

No, I didn't. I had to write a check out the government last year. So you lose again.

Was it more than $10,000.00? If not, you STILL owe me. LEECH!

Let's try this again... try and keep up sparky. Quoting myself:

"If you are getting money from my taxes or my electric bill, you can't twist and turn it any way you wish, that's just legalized stealing."

Did you note the work "if"? That means when the following statement is not true, then this doesn't apply. If only applies when the statement is true. Are you Billy Clinton and need to define "IF" before you figure this out?

Your entire premise is flawed because you've assumed that somebody is taking something from YOU. They're not, they're getting it from the power company. Once you pay them for YOUR power usage, the money is no longer YOURS as you have paid for SERVICES RENDERED. As far as your taxes are concerned, until you're ponying up at least 5 figures a year, you're STILL living on someone else's dime, so again, nobody is taking anything from you.

IF: you paid for it your self with no rebate or government funding or support or checks from the utility company... then, the statement made doesn't apply to you.

Which I made PERFECTLY CLEAR, and then you continued to try your silly-assed little poor mouthing "you're taking something from me". What's the matter slick, can't you comprehend the meaning of the basic English language.

IF: the government gave you a rebate, or the utilities gave you move for your purchase, then the statement made does apply to you.

IF: the government gives me a rebate, that means that they're giving me money back that I've OVERPAID, so it's STILL not "your money", and if the utility company gives me a rebate, the same applies.

For further help on "reading comprehension", please use dictionary.com before posting more stupid, foolish, unsupportable idiocy on the forum.

That would be very good advise for you to follow, since it's YOU who have been making the stupid, foolish, idiotic and insupportable statements.

So you are justifying being an idiot. Well more power to you Forest. Now I know how William F. Buckley felt when he had to deal with mental midgets like James Carville.

Again, not a single response to the evidence given. Of course I no longer expect a decent response from you, and you have NOT disappointed me.

The point here is that you've presented NO evidence in support of anything you've said, nothing, nada, zilch, zero. As far as I know, you've been pulling your "evidence" out of your butt, however I'm not sure how you managed to get it past your head!