The biblical conundrum

[Dr.Who]

Define your terms, I will not get into a semantics war because we are using different definitions.

Using a dictioary we find that an anecdote is a short humorous story.

We also find than objective means being based on observable phenomena.

Therefore claims people have made to have seen or heard God are based on their experiences in which they have used their senses to make an observation.

 

[cashmcall]

I cannot prove that a god does not exist however the burden of proof as always is on the claimant. You claim their is desert god that is greatly involved with our lives and takes particular objection to what we do while naked and Im asking you to logically, historically, or empirically back it up. Also using the bible to prove the claims contained withing the bible is fallacious. (circular reasoning)


Yeah let us put god on trial, let us look at the philosophical, scientific, and archaeological evidence for the existence of this deity. Let us see if the belief in god is justified, give me the reason for the hope you have.


I think the metaphor is coming unhinged at this point... I am not making the gnostic claim that god does not exist, I am saying that I do not have sufficient reason to justify the belief.


The problem with calling it a creation is that it is begging the question, which I believe you recognised in the text above. The Big Bang theory is not a theory of absolute origins that is likely knowledge that will never be completely known to us. Biological computer operating system? Im afraid that when you employ the use of metaphors without context further explanation is requires to portray the meaning.


Program? You are begging the question again you are assuming that it was in fact programmed.


Evolutionary biology explains the formation of consciousness. Perhaps you should seek answers for these questions instead of assuming that god is the only explanation. We know a great deal about the structure, function, and origins of the brain.


You have been using ad hominem attack throughout the post (yet another fallacy) and I find it interesting that a moderator would condone this attempt to disrupt civility by liking the post. Also I wont go as far that the existence of god cannot be proved Thomas Aquinas, Descartes, and many like him have attempted to present logical proofs for the existence of god outside of the bible. However I will tell you that using the bible to justify the claims of the bible is not proof of anything.


I am not saying this at all, I am merely saying I do not see the justification for your belief... This is a strawman.

So , you agree..It would be foolish to spend any more time on this..

 

[dogtowner]

It is not at all hard to defend as it makes perfect sense.

Ap seems to miss the point of his passage

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:17

Why is the perfect word of god so hard to defend?

Perhaps if he asks the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth he could move past this.

 

[Dr.Who]

Tell me do you have mathematical equation to describe god? Has it been repeatedly tested and observed within the scientific community?

I take issue with how you used objective define what you mean by objective.

Yes there is a mathematical equation to describe God.

For example If I state that the number 1 exist I have made a mathematical statement. In fact I have made one of the most fundamental statements ever.

And if I state that God exist then too I have made a mathematical statement. I can apply rules of logic to it and state its corrollary: God does not exist, or make statments about God: God is [fill in blank].

Yes God has been repeatedly tested and observed within the scientific community.

If we ask scientists at what temperature does water freeze they will make an observation and then compare results. Many will say that water freezes at -32 others will say it freezes at -31 or -33. We can even say that a certain percentage of scientists state that it is -32 and another percentage state that it is -33... With further examination we can deduce that the purity of the water and the altitude effects the results.

With God they too have used their senses to make statements about God. Among all the people of the EArth who have made statements that they have direct experience with God many of them are scientists (just like I have a degree in science and was a scientist). We can even state that a certain percentage believe in God and a certain percentage do not. We can even point to polls in which 40% of physicists believe in God. We can even quote Einstein who when confronted with certain truths about the universe said that he had no choice but to change his mind and become a believer in some sort of God.

So how many scientists have written papers about their sightings of God? Not many. How many have written papers about their sightings of the comet Ceasar? Not many. In fact since the last time it was sighted was in 44 BC no modern scientist has ever seen it. Do you doubt it exists?

The point is that rare events, like sightings of comets and sightings of God, are every bit as observable as common events - just not often. The bible records many events over the course of a period of time ranging from the beginning to about 200ish AD. And throughout this whole book that specializes in data about God there are only a handful of recorded sightings.

 

[Apathy]

It isn't. Millions of people including myself who have spend many hours examining it closely find it to be quite defensible.

You are not doing a good job of defending it now... You merely declare it unknowable when you find something does not seem as it should.

Also the bible is not something you can dedicate 'many' hours to and consider yourself to even have a general understanding. Not only do you have to read the entire bible which the majority of Christian admit they have not done but you must study the history and culture of the people who wrote the texts to understand it properly. In short Ill raise you, your many hours and add to it many years..

Meanwhile a handful of people write books and start websites tryiung[sic] to show it to be ridiculous. One of those books prompted me to take a new look at it when as an atheist(? this is incoherent) I read an atheist book and found it to be so blatantly baised and illogical that I figured if the best complaints they could come up with were so horribly unsound then I should look at it [Christianity] again.

As for the bias aren't we all?

You read one book on atheism and declared it illogical? That is an very intellectually lazy thing to do...

What were these complaints?

Also im curious having spent hours reading a book on atheism you should be an expert on what atheism actually is and what it claims. May I ask for your insight? What is atheism?

 

[Apathy]

thanks for finding that. if you read the second sentence you have made my point.

Jesus telling us that the law of moses still applies is proof that it no longer applies to christians?

blah blah blah

So you concede the point as you clearly have no refutation.
You are being awfully rude for someone who is to be keeping this forum civil Mr. Moderator.

 

[Apathy]

It is not at all hard to defend as it makes perfect sense.x3

Then why don't you defend it? Im sorry but telling me it is defensible ad nauseum does not make it so.

1 Peter 3:15 you are supposed to defend the faith.

 

[Apathy]

So , you agree..It would be foolish to spend any more time on this..

If you refuse to defend the claims you have made then I would agree there is no point to continue.. I would actually go further and say if you refuse to defend the claims you should not make them in the first place.

 

[dogtowner]

Jesus telling us that the law of moses still applies is proof that it no longer applies to christians?

take a sec and read both sentences

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:17

He is not saying that the law is anything other than fulfilled by His actions. It applies to those who do not accept the salvation Christ offers. This is not that complicated.

So you concede the point as you clearly have no refutation.
You are being awfully rude for someone who is to be keeping this forum civil Mr. Moderator.

I note that there is no point.

 

[Apathy]

Ap seems to miss the point of his passage

Then correct me.

Perhaps if he asks the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth he could move past this.

Is there an option that does not involve talking to myself? Perhaps a reasoned response from an actual person?

 

[dogtowner]

Then correct me.

see previous post

Is there an option that does not involve talking to myself? Perhaps a reasoned response from an actual person?

the option given does not involve talking to yourself. if you want opinions of humans there are no end of books available and any of them that rely on reason over revelation are a crap shoot at best and more likely wrong. it is important to understand that the very nature of Christianity that it is a personal relationships you have with Christ. I'm sure this makes for you a catch-22 but thats why its referred to as faith. never a good idea to put your faith in anything so fallible as men on anything as important as your soul.

 

[Apathy]

Yes there is a mathematical equation to describe God.

For example If I state that the number 1 exist I have made a mathematical statement. In fact I have made one of the most fundamental statements ever.

No you made an existential claim by saying the number 1 exists not a mathematical equation that describe god... We have an equation that describe the force of gravity.

And if I state that God exist then too I have made a mathematical statement. I can apply rules of logic to it and state its corrollary: God does not exist, or make statments about God: God is [fill in blank].

Certainly if you assume the existence of god and define is properties you can then use the rules of logic with the entity you describe as god.

Yes God has been repeatedly tested and observed within the scientific community.

This is news to me... Problem solved point me to scientific journal that describes the experiment and the results then I will spin on a dime.

If we ask scientists at what temperature does water freeze they will make an observation and then compare results. Many will say that water freezes at -32 others will say it freezes at -31 or -33. We can even say that a certain percentage of scientists state that it is -32 and another percentage state that it is -33... With further examination we can deduce that the purity of the water and the altitude effects the results.

Water doesn't freeze at a single temperature it has a range at which the matter begins to transition from a solid to a liquid and a liquid to a gas... And by no scale does it freeze anywhere close to -32 degrees.

Water begins to freeze at about 0 C, 32 F, and 273 K.

In case there are anymore questions...

Now that you understand the changes of state may I ask to relevance of this?

With God they too have used their senses to make statements about God. Among all the people of the EArth who have made statements that they have direct experience with God many of them are scientists (just like I have a degree in science and was a scientist).

A scientist who does not understand the change in state?

We can even state that a certain percentage believe in God and a certain percentage do not. We can even point to polls in which 40% of physicists believe in God. We can even quote Einstein who when confronted with certain truths about the universe said that he had no choice but to change his mind and become a believer in some sort of God.

The god physicists references is rarely a personal god. Usually it is a deistic entity or more often a metaphorical god. Not that this is relevant as it is an argument from authority, their authority may have some relevance if we were talking about physics but we are not.

So how many scientists have written papers about their sightings of God? Not many. How many have written papers about their sightings of the comet Ceasar? Not many. In fact since the last time it was sighted was in 44 BC no modern scientist has ever seen it. Do you doubt it exists?

Noted astrophysicists do question its existence... I am not certain of the asteroids existence but it certainly is more probable than a god. We have observed countless asteroids and recorded their images... We have no such documentation for any god. Apparently he became tired of preforming miracle as soon as we gained the ability to record them.

The point is that rare events, like sightings of comets and sightings of God, are every bit as observable as common events - just not often. The bible records many events over the course of a period of time ranging from the beginning to about 200ish AD. And throughout this whole book that specializes in data about God there are only a handful of recorded sightings.

The bible is of questionable authorship, has been edited for political reasons, has been archaeologically contradicted, scientifically, and self contradicted. The beginning of the earth 4.5 billion years ago? It certainly skipped over quite a bit if that is the case.

 

[Apathy]

see previous post



the option given does not involve talking to yourself. if you want opinions of humans there are no end of books available and any of them that rely on reason over revelation are a crap shoot at best and more likely wrong.

Reason works the fact you are even using a computer demonstrates this... What has divine revelation ever done?

it is important to understand that the very nature of Christianity that it is a personal relationships you have with Christ. I'm sure this makes for you a catch-22 but thats why its referred to as faith. never a good idea to put your faith in anything so fallible as men on anything as important as your soul.

Why dont you have faith in thor? krishna? lord xenu? athena? If all you offer to prove you claims is faith then there are literally thousands of gods you cannot separate yourself from.

If you pick your faith by guess and by golly I may try that scientology thing, they offered me superpowers.

 

[dogtowner]

Reason works the fact you are even using a computer demonstrates this... What has divine revelation ever done?



Why dont you have faith in thor? krishna? lord xenu? athena? If all you offer to prove you claims is faith then there are literally thousands of gods you cannot separate yourself from.

If you pick your faith by guess and by golly I may try that scientology thing, they offered me superpowers.

Kind of proved my point about putting your faith in people didn't you ?
If those others had ever spoken to me than perhaps you have a point.

 

[Apathy]

Kind of proved my point about putting your faith in people didn't you ?

No obviously not you are a person are you not? Why am I not buying stock in what you are saying?

If those others had ever spoken to me than perhaps you have a point.

I used to hear voices too but now that I take medication I no longer hear them.