The end of Empire-USA third world country

[Mare Tranquillity]

Again, I'm going to, for the most part, stay out of this since I think we did offer the proofs for the theory given. I believe there are tons more proofs than what we covered to, many more than I am willing to detail here. I have more than enough proof for myself, that I am convinced beyond any doubt, that it is true.

But I am curious. One question I would like you to answer, just for my own curiosity. What proof would you like? If there was something that could be found and detailed in some way, showing that Jesus did exist... what would it be? You want XXXXX evidence... what are the Xs?

Conjure Him up and have Him do it again would work. That's part of the problem, what could possibly prove a story like this? There isn't anything, you just have to take it on faith or not. I think it's not only a crock of baloney, I think that it's irrelevant, the existence of Jesus is meaningless, His message was the meaningful thing, but Christians have thrown out the important thing (the message) and they are worshipping the bathtub (what held the message). Jesus was just a messenger, but we've largely ignored His message in our rush to worship Him and make a new religion.

Thomas Sheehan was right in his book THE FIRST COMING: HOW THE KINGDOM OF GOD BECAME CHRISTIANITY when he said that Peter was supposed to deny Jesus, it was the right thing for him to do since Jesus was just the envelope that the message came in and it was supposed to be thrown away as unimportant SO THAT PEOPLE WOULD FOCUS ON THE MESSAGE. God knew people well enough to understand that they'd probably forcus on the man and miss the message so He tried to avoid that outcome, but good ol' Peter messed it up. Sheehan's book is a good read.

 

[Andy]

Conjure Him up and have Him do it again would work. That's part of the problem, what could possibly prove a story like this? There isn't anything, you just have to take it on faith or not. I think it's not only a crock of baloney, I think that it's irrelevant, the existence of Jesus is meaningless, His message was the meaningful thing, but Christians have thrown out the important thing (the message) and they are worshipping the bathtub (what held the message). Jesus was just a messenger, but we've largely ignored His message in our rush to worship Him and make a new religion.

Thomas Sheehan was right in his book THE FIRST COMING: HOW THE KINGDOM OF GOD BECAME CHRISTIANITY when he said that Peter was supposed to deny Jesus, it was the right thing for him to do since Jesus was just the envelope that the message came in and it was supposed to be thrown away as unimportant SO THAT PEOPLE WOULD FOCUS ON THE MESSAGE. God knew people well enough to understand that they'd probably forcus on the man and miss the message so He tried to avoid that outcome, but good ol' Peter messed it up. Sheehan's book is a good read.

I have a ton more than just faith. You think there isn't. That's your opinion. But more importantly, you have admitted that you have setup a situation where there can not possibly be the evidence you claim doesn't exist. So, this is meaningless because in saying that, you have removed the ability to admit there is evidence regardless of whether it exists or not. Be well.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I have a ton more than just faith. You think there isn't. That's your opinion. But more importantly, you have admitted that you have setup a situation where there can not possibly be the evidence you claim doesn't exist. So, this is meaningless because in saying that, you have removed the ability to admit there is evidence regardless of whether it exists or not. Be well.

Well, I don't know, Andy, I can't think of anything that would prove all those stories are true, what would it take to prove all the Mormon stories to YOU?
If you can't come up with specific proof that would convince you of Mormonism, then you are no different than I.

 

[Andy]

Well, I don't know, Andy, I can't think of anything that would prove all those stories are true, what would it take to prove all the Mormon stories to YOU?
If you can't come up with specific proof that would convince you of Mormonism, then you are no different than I.

I can. Actually there are tons of things that if the Mormons could produce, it would give great credibility to their claims. In fact, most religions have things that if they could produce them, it would give great credibility to their claims.

Now it does seem to me that you have changed the original point. If so, that's fine, but then I'm still on the original. You are now requiring that there be proof of every single story throughout the Christ account.

That's different than simply stating there is no evidence of his mere existence. There is clear undeniable evidence supporting his existence. Even the Pagans do not deny this. On the other hand, if you want to say there is no evidence that he walked on the water, sure I'll buy that. It was only the apostles who saw it, and only they reported it, and I'd wager the foot prints in the waves have slightly worn away by now.

So no, I don't have a concrete, set in stone, bit of evidence for each and every single story.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I can. Actually there are tons of things that if the Mormons could produce, it would give great credibility to their claims. In fact, most religions have things that if they could produce them, it would give great credibility to their claims.

Now it does seem to me that you have changed the original point. If so, that's fine, but then I'm still on the original. You are now requiring that there be proof of every single story throughout the Christ account.

That's different than simply stating there is no evidence of his mere existence. There is clear undeniable evidence supporting his existence. Even the Pagans do not deny this. On the other hand, if you want to say there is no evidence that he walked on the water, sure I'll buy that. It was only the apostles who saw it, and only they reported it, and I'd wager the foot prints in the waves have slightly worn away by now.

So no, I don't have a concrete, set in stone, bit of evidence for each and every single story.

No, that wasn't my intent. If you wish to confine it to His existence, then fine, I'm willing to do that. Produce this clear, undeniable evidence please, because if it's clear and undeniable, then it's proof! Which means that even the Muslims and the Jews and the Hindus will accept it. Proof.

As far as the Mormons are concerned, you're dodging the question. What would it take to prove to you that the Mormon religion was true, to make you convert, to prove that the Angel Moroni gave Joe the plates and all that?

 

[Dr.Who]

No, that wasn't my intent. If you wish to confine it to His existence, then fine, I'm willing to do that. Produce this clear, undeniable evidence please, because if it's clear and undeniable, then it's proof! Which means that even the Muslims and the Jews and the Hindus will accept it. Proof.

I know I am not Andy but this is an open forum.

Almost all Muslims, Jews, and Hindus do believe that he was a real person.

I suppose we could provide a letter from a person who wrote that he saw Jesus. I suppose we could provide letters from people who knew that the writer of the first letter was a real person. I suppose we could provide a "coffin'" inscribed with the name of the person who wrote the first letter and a statement that he was James the brother of Jesus. I suppose we could provide a thousand tiny facts about history that were first reported in these letters, doubted, and then demonstrated to be true - like the existence of the chief Priest Ciapus who persecuted Jesus. And all these have been provided.

As far as the Mormons are concerned, you're dodging the question. What would it take to prove to you that the Mormon religion was true, to make you convert, to prove that the Angel Moroni gave Joe the plates and all that?

Gold plates, more than a handful of witnesses who saw Moroni, any others who saw the plates, not calling the angel Moroni one time and Nephi another (which most LDS admit was a mistake, but prophets don't make mistakes when speaking prophetically), a lack of reasons to think that the translations from the "plates" didn't just contain plaguirazims (spelling errors and all) from the KJV, a life lead by Joe in which he demonstrated that he was willing to lay down his life for his belief (and not for his lifestyle) rather than dying in a gun fight, any reason to think that Joe changed from being a con-man to being a prophet, any significant archeological evidence in support of the book of mormon...

But if LDSers want to believe this on faith they may.