US Spends more per person, covers less, gets less on health care.

Funny...don't see a link to your "source"...care to provide where you got that propaganda from?

Good catch. I totally forgot to link my sources. Not sure why.


http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html

http://momocrats.typepad.com/momocrats/2008/08/healthcare-a-ta.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared

http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/15524/Canadas_Medical_Nightmare.html

http://factreal.blogspot.com/2008/10/when-they-offered-change100-millions.html

http://www.faqs.org/abstracts/Healt...system-a-Canadian-physicians-perspective.html

http://www.nationalpost.com/life/story.html?id=222287

http://www.caribbeanmedicine.com/article9.htm

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010266

Hon, I can list you hundreds of articles on the poor results of socialized medicine. And most of them are coming from sources out-side the US. The worst critics of Canadian health care, are in Canada.

You know, really, when you think about it, why would I be telling you these things if they were not true?

Don't you think that if I thought we really could get "free" health care from the government, that I would be for it? Who wouldn't want to have a few of their month bills taken away? I for sure would love an extra $1,400 in my account at the end of the year, in saved cash from un-needed premiums.

But the fact is, those systems don't work. Why would I make up "propaganda" if it did work? That makes no sense.
 
Werbung:
Funny...don't see a link to your "source"...care to provide where you got that propaganda from?

Here Cookie, I want you to investigate this yourself. If the socialized health care system in Canada is so good, and works so well that we need it here...

Why does the company "Timely Medical Alternatives" exist?

Short explanation... Timely Medical Alternatives is a company that operates in Canada, and their only product is to hook up patients with money, to doctors *outside the country* willing to help them.

http://www.timelymedical.ca/

Here is a short video, one of many, of Canadian people who had to get health care, and used this company to escape their own system.


Quick synopses: McCreith in the video, started having seizures, and constant headaches. He was told he'd have to wait for four months, to get an MRI, while just dealing with his seizures and headaches. Instead of suffering, he got some money and went to Timely Medical Alternatives, which hooked him up with a doctor in the US. He got the MRI in a week.

The MRI showed a cancer tumor in his head. Back to his free Canadian doctor with the MRI, the doctor set him up for a neurosurgeon, and put him on a waiting list for another four months. Forget that. Back to TMA, and back to the states for the surgery which was given in under a week.

To add insult to injury, he applied to have the government reimburse the cost of the surgery in the US, and of course the government system he paid half his income into for his entire life, denied the claim.

He's now suing.

Question... why does this company exist if socialized care is so great? If I'm just reading propaganda, why do companies exist to get people out of the system? Why would people be willing to pay for service, if their system is so great that's free?

I'll let you figure that one out.
 
Selective stats can be very deceiving. I go straight to face to face conversations my wife & I have been a part of. We have friends in Canada (Yellowknife Canada to be exact). And I've vacationed with a lot of Canadians on vacation in Mexico the last three years.

They all tell me the same thing. They truly like their National Healthcare a lot. When I would say things like... Well don't you have to wait a long time to see a doctor because it's free... they would actually laugh about it! The husband would say to the wife something like... How long did it take you to get in to see the doctor last time eh? She replied... set up the appointment in a week and was in the waiting room 30 minutes or so once we got there eh? They joked about me thinking they had a problem with it the whole trip last year.

The truth is yes we have more locations (for one reason because of more major medical universities)... but we also have a hell of a lot more population.

And yes if you want something "elective" or "considered experimental" there are at times some moderately long waiting list. But guess what?

Here in the states our paid medical insurance doesn't even cover ELECTIVE SURGERY nor does it cover whatever the insurance company deems "EXPERIMENTAL TREATMENTS"! So in reality there's no big difference there.

That's why sometimes Canadians go out of country for certain procedures.

But I can also tell you this. My friends from Canada won't even set foot in America to visit us until they first buy a special temporary insurance policy to cover them during their stay because they are so afraid they might get sick or injured down here without coverage.

Now I'm not saying America has to copy the Canadian model or anyone elses... but we can certainly develop some kind of a hybrid healthcare system that puts a halt to the skyrocketing healthcare premiums businesses and employees are having to deal with under our current broken system.



 
I would not take away the right of that person to have botox so our national average could go down. I would not take away that persons right to spend every last dime on futile life extension at the age of 89. I would not make everyone take a one size fits all insurance plan. As long as it is their money they can spend it however they want to.

one last point: that choice to get a PPO or an HMO or to buy the best or the worst or to be self-insured or to take a chance or to get a tummy-tuck or to go to a doctor that makes you wait 2 weeks for an appointment or 2 hours is called freedom. It is immoral to take away a persons freedom except to stop that person from taking away another persons freedom. Laws exist to stop one guy from hurting another, not to move money from healthy people to sick people. We have charities that can take care of the sick, by exactly the amount that we want to take care of them, and the charities move money from kind people to sick people in ways that are moral and build up our country rather than harming it.

I agree with you, as far as it goes. I can recall a post of yours which said,

So how do we get back to lower prices on health insurance and health services? First let everyone choose their own health insurance company. It is virtually criminal to create a system in which your boss makes those choices for you. Second let you work out for yourself how you want to deal with your health insurance company. Do you want a deductible and lower premiums or do you want no deductible and higher premiums? That is no one's business but your own. Do you want a co-pay and lower premiums? Again that is up to you. But people who have even small, $10, co-pays and small deductibles ask their doctor how much it costs for an exam or for a procedure. And people who get to shop around for their doctors choose good doctors who cost less than good doctors who cost more. This is just competition and it is a simple idea that has proven itself to work very well for a long time.

My argument is that we don't have enough choices. Often the employer picks out insurance plan. The ability to choose a between a PPO and HMO is not enough freedom for me. We can't be looking at other countries with socialized health medicine and say, "I guess that's good enough for us".

Before I retired, I was self employed and bought an insurance program with a $10,000 deductible (Major medical?). I lived in San Diego and made a concentrated effort to get inexpensive medical care - not because I was poor, but because I hated going to a doctor's office with an appointment and still wait for an hour. I hated not being able to get a fixed price for a very specific procedure. And I hated to pay over $100 for a problem that I could knew from reading on the Internet was not complicated.

Several times I crossed into Mexico to get minor operations - such as a bad scrape on my arm when I fell off a horse.

My point is we need more choices. I was a civil engineer and got a huge break on my malpractice insurance if I only took clients that signed a contract with both "hold harmless and indemnify" and "limit of liability" clauses.

I don't need a prescription for high blood pressure medicine every 6 months. I've been taking a beta blocker and a ACE inhibitor for the past 30 years. I can take my own blood pressure and know everything a doctor (and a pharmacist) knows just by reading the internet. Why can't I buy it over the counter? Why should I pay so much more for prescription medicine just to protect some other idiot could possibly abuse high blood pressure medicine?

Give me some real freedom of choice, and let me lower my own health bill with choices.

We've got to give the system a top to bottom overhaul - not just a change in the way we pay the bills.
 
Hobo1;89824]
Several times I crossed into Mexico to get minor operations - such as a bad scrape on my arm when I fell off a horse.

No doubt this is the truth.

Funny you talked about going to Mexico for some treatments. My father-in-law lives in McAllen Texas and goes across the border for all his major dental work (crowns and such).

He has had excellent results and says many if not probably most of the Doctor & Dentist down there actually went to schools in America.

Just like anywhere you need to get some references to be sure you are getting a good practitioner but you can easily find them and save a lot of money.

Where a root canal & crown can be 2 grand here in the states... he can get it all done in Mexico at a dentist trained in America for shy of 8 hundred dollars.
 
Selective stats can be very deceiving. I go straight to face to face conversations my wife & I have been a part of. We have friends in Canada (Yellowknife Canada to be exact). And I've vacationed with a lot of Canadians on vacation in Mexico the last three years.


Hey, that's good. So do I! And some do like it, normally the ones that haven't had to really use it. But I've also heard some horror stories from people in Canada. Long waits, awful service, and not getting help.

There was a guy that lived down the road from my parents home here in Ohio. This guys wife had a brain aneurism and needed really expensive rehabilitation. Of course Health Insurance didn't cover everything, and the bills were pretty big. So he had this great idea, he'd move to Canada, and get her health care provided free!

He moved back to the US. They treated his wife so poorly, and his taxes were so much higher, he found the cost of US care was worth it.

I have just one more.
We used to go to Canada for a family reunion vacation, as a lodge in Ontario. It was a small family run lodge sitting on a lake. We knew the couple that operated it very well. One year the husband got really ill, and needed surgery of some kind. What kind I do not know. What I do know is, he died on the waiting list.

Moreover, I can promise you he, and his wife, were very proud of their free health care before that happened. I wager most of the people you know will be very proud of their free health care before something like that happens to them. His wife though... she's not so proud anymore.

Here in the states our paid medical insurance doesn't even cover ELECTIVE SURGERY nor does it cover whatever the insurance company deems "EXPERIMENTAL TREATMENTS"! So in reality there's no big difference there.

TMA07_General.gif

Again, this is from Timely Medical Alternatives, the company that helps patients escape Canadian socialized care. Most of those are not "elective" nor are they "experimental treatments". So that theory is a wash.

But I can also tell you this. My friends from Canada won't even set foot in America to visit us until they first buy a special temporary insurance policy to cover them during their stay because they are so afraid they might get sick or injured down here without coverage.

Wow, paying for service? What a concept.
 
Where a root canal & crown can be 2 grand here in the states... he can get it all done in Mexico at a dentist trained in America for shy of 8 hundred dollars.[/COLOR]

What? Are you crazy? Top Gun, if you paid $2,000 for a root canal, you need to boot your dentist and find another. You are getting way ripped off. My mothers last root canal was under $400.

Since I didn't know if you or her were fudging the numbers up, I did a quick google to see what popped up.

Here's a very "ballpark" estimate of the price that you might pay to have root canal treatment
performed by a general dentist.
Root canal treatment for a front tooth (incisor).
$360.00 - $700.00

Root canal treatment for a back tooth (molar).
$600.00 - $910.00
http://www.animated-teeth.com/root_canal/t8_root_canal_cost.htm

If a dentist is charging over $1,000 you best go find another and get another quote.

I checked another site, just to validate my findings.

Unless you have some super screwed up, nasty teeth, that need all kinds of extra care, paying over $1,000 means your being ripped off.

Crowns are a bit different. There are three different types, and each type is different quality vs cost. Plus the location of the tooth and form of the crown can make the work very difficult. As such, prices vary wildly. That said, for the cheapest type of crown, you should be able to get it done for under $1,000. Most people don't want the cheapest type, because they look less like normal teeth, and have a tendency to come loose at some point.

If you get a cheaper quote in Mexico, I would be curious what type of crown was put in.
 
What? Are you crazy? Top Gun, if you paid $2,000 for a root canal, you need to boot your dentist and find another. You are getting way ripped off. My mothers last root canal was under $400.

Since I didn't know if you or her were fudging the numbers up, I did a quick google to see what popped up.

If you get a cheaper quote in Mexico, I would be curious what type of crown was put in.

Next time take a little more time searching Google to get the real information. Did you happen to read the comments to the article?

Amount: $1,824.00 not covered by insurance Root Canal
Posted by: David in Plano, TX. Purchased: November, 2007
Which Tooth: #31 Practitioner: Ahmed
This seems too expensive, but I was in need of relief on the day after Thanksgiving. My insurance does not cover.

Amount: $1,370.00 not covered by insurance Expensive Root Canal
Posted by: Ian in HEWLETT, NY. Purchased: December, 2007
Which Tooth: #3 Practitioner:
My reg dentist sent me for a Root Canal stating the charge would be $50-100 over average root canal charges. My research indicates average charge for this would not exceed $900, therefore I was looking to pay $1000. I was charged $1370. for the root canal. Am I being ripped off?

Amount: $255.00 not covered by insurance $1075 before insurance
Posted by: Amy K in Germantown, MD. Purchased: December, 2007
Which Tooth: #15 back molar Practitioner: Dr. Amir Sarkarzadeh
For my root canal, I was referred to an experienced endodontist in the area due to the location of the tooth and was shocked when I heard how much it would cost, even with insurance. However, during my brief stay in the waiting room, I heard the receptionist quoting prices of $300-$700, which made me feel a little better about my seemingly exorbitant fee. I spent $255 out of pocket, including deductible, for great novocaine and a fast, painless that left me wondering why root canals were given such a bad rap! (I later understood, when I paid $85 for the temporary filling and close to $600 for the subsequent crown.)

Amount: $1,250.00 not covered by insurance root canal
Posted by: Bill R in Garden City, NY. Purchased: December, 2007
Which Tooth: (top molar ) #3 Practitioner: Dr. R. Gupta
A cracked filling caused decay of the nerves in a molar. Sensitivity to cold/hot was an indication of need for root canal. Endodontist found complications during surgery: four canals and calcification, but price still was $1250. I have no insurance. Filling and crown are extra. I had quotes as high as $2000.

You will discover (as I have) that the dentist fails to tell you the total cost of the procedure. The Root Canal can be one item. A crown is virtually always needed to cap the tooth, that is another cost. You can't even get into a dentist office without a complete tooth cleaning - another charge. It takes a couple of office visits which are often billed separately from the procedure itself. You are right - there are several different types of types of material used to make the crown. I recall the logical and most common choice is titanium, which is cheaper than gold. A ceramic material is used to coat the crown - so it looks like a real tooth.

Here's information from another site:
After a tooth has had a root canal, it can become dry and brittle and easy to break. A crown is usually recommended to restore the tooth properly. The cost of a root canal on a molar (back tooth) averages around $800.00 and more if a root canal specialist performs the procedure. A crown averages around $900.00.
 
Oh I see, so Top Gun was saying to have them done together, reaches nearly $2,000. Ok I get it now.

Comments are a difficult judge. Typically the people who paid only $200-$500 are not going be checking a site for dental prices. So you end up with all the people over charged. And I have no doubt there are dentists who over charge for their services because they either are really scummy or they know their the only dentist for a large radius.

I might ask around about this, just for curiosity sake. My last dentist visit was very reasonable, and I didn't pay very much, at least not considering the amount of service I was given.

Better still, I go back to the dentist this Tuesday. I may just ask a few questions while I'm there. See what he charges.
 
Hey, that's good. So do I! And some do like it, normally the ones that haven't had to really use it. But I've also heard some horror stories from people in Canada. Long waits, awful service, and not getting help.

There was a guy that lived down the road from my parents home here in Ohio. This guys wife had a brain aneurism and needed really expensive rehabilitation. Of course Health Insurance didn't cover everything, and the bills were pretty big. So he had this great idea, he'd move to Canada, and get her health care provided free!

He moved back to the US. They treated his wife so poorly, and his taxes were so much higher, he found the cost of US care was worth it.

I have just one more.
We used to go to Canada for a family reunion vacation, as a lodge in Ontario. It was a small family run lodge sitting on a lake. We knew the couple that operated it very well. One year the husband got really ill, and needed surgery of some kind. What kind I do not know. What I do know is, he died on the waiting list.

Moreover, I can promise you he, and his wife, were very proud of their free health care before that happened. I wager most of the people you know will be very proud of their free health care before something like that happens to them. His wife though... she's not so proud anymore.

Most of those are not "elective" nor are they "experimental treatments". So that theory is a wash.

But some are "elective" and considered "experimental treatments"... and if even just one was, that would matter to a whole lot of patients.

I could make a case going on for probably unlimited pages about documented cases of insurance companies denying coverage and/or refusing to pay for treatments in the US that were being used successfully in other countries but the US insurance companies personal claim that the treatment was "experimental" kept it from being paid for inside the US?

I could do that...

However like I said it seems a lot more telling to me to actually talk to many people from Canada directly. And I always start out taking the devils advocate position that their system couldn't be up to par just to see what they'll say... and they alway shoot me down with example after example.

And some of these people have been treated for both cancer and very serious injuries obtained working in the drilling industry.

I'm confident we can improve our healthcare system here at home possibly by coming up with some type of a hybrid system. There is no real competition in healthcare costs as it is in the US today. It's like gasoline. There are only a handful of suppliers and they basically price fix... without actually sitting down together and price fixing which would be illegal.

They just watch one of the other 3 or 4 raise or lower prices and they match it.

It's going to take a minute but American has stepped up and broken up monopolies in the past. American works... it just takes some serious hardship to create the needed call for change.
;)

obama31.jpg
 
Next time take a little more time searching Google to get the real information. Did you happen to read the comments to the article?

Amount: $1,824.00 not covered by insurance Root Canal
Posted by: David in Plano, TX. Purchased: November, 2007
Which Tooth: #31 Practitioner: Ahmed
This seems too expensive, but I was in need of relief on the day after Thanksgiving. My insurance does not cover.

Amount: $1,370.00 not covered by insurance Expensive Root Canal
Posted by: Ian in HEWLETT, NY. Purchased: December, 2007
Which Tooth: #3 Practitioner:
My reg dentist sent me for a Root Canal stating the charge would be $50-100 over average root canal charges. My research indicates average charge for this would not exceed $900, therefore I was looking to pay $1000. I was charged $1370. for the root canal. Am I being ripped off?

Amount: $255.00 not covered by insurance $1075 before insurance
Posted by: Amy K in Germantown, MD. Purchased: December, 2007
Which Tooth: #15 back molar Practitioner: Dr. Amir Sarkarzadeh
For my root canal, I was referred to an experienced endodontist in the area due to the location of the tooth and was shocked when I heard how much it would cost, even with insurance. However, during my brief stay in the waiting room, I heard the receptionist quoting prices of $300-$700, which made me feel a little better about my seemingly exorbitant fee. I spent $255 out of pocket, including deductible, for great novocaine and a fast, painless that left me wondering why root canals were given such a bad rap! (I later understood, when I paid $85 for the temporary filling and close to $600 for the subsequent crown.)

Amount: $1,250.00 not covered by insurance root canal
Posted by: Bill R in Garden City, NY. Purchased: December, 2007
Which Tooth: (top molar ) #3 Practitioner: Dr. R. Gupta
A cracked filling caused decay of the nerves in a molar. Sensitivity to cold/hot was an indication of need for root canal. Endodontist found complications during surgery: four canals and calcification, but price still was $1250. I have no insurance. Filling and crown are extra. I had quotes as high as $2000.

You will discover (as I have) that the dentist fails to tell you the total cost of the procedure. The Root Canal can be one item. A crown is virtually always needed to cap the tooth, that is another cost. You can't even get into a dentist office without a complete tooth cleaning - another charge. It takes a couple of office visits which are often billed separately from the procedure itself. You are right - there are several different types of types of material used to make the crown. I recall the logical and most common choice is titanium, which is cheaper than gold. A ceramic material is used to coat the crown - so it looks like a real tooth.

Here's information from another site:
After a tooth has had a root canal, it can become dry and brittle and easy to break. A crown is usually recommended to restore the tooth properly. The cost of a root canal on a molar (back tooth) averages around $800.00 and more if a root canal specialist performs the procedure. A crown averages around $900.00.

At least someone is reading!:)

Andy's comments kinda amazed me too because I myself not more than 6 weeks ago just had that exact work done right here in Ohio with a root canal... the post... & a porcelain over metal crown put on a back tooth.

I can't tabulate exactly off the top of my head the whole bill because I paid 60% as my co-pay and my dental insurance picked up the other 40%...

But roughly I'd say my work was up around $1500 and I had no abscess to treat (just broke a cusp off) and if I'd have wanted a gold crown instead of porcelain over base metal they told my that would have been almost an additional $200. So it's not like it's impossible to get up pretty close to 2 grand.


Have you ever been to Reynosa or Progresso Mexico? That's where my fater-in-law goes for dental.
 
At least someone is reading!:)

Andy's comments kinda amazed me too because I myself not more than 6 weeks ago just had that exact work done right here in Ohio with a root canal... the post... & a porcelain over metal crown put on a back tooth.

I can't tabulate exactly off the top of my head the whole bill because I paid 60% as my co-pay and my dental insurance picked up the other 40%...

But roughly I'd say my work was up around $1500 and I had no abscess to treat (just broke a cusp off) and if I'd have wanted a gold crown instead of porcelain over base metal they told my that would have been almost an additional $200. So it's not like it's impossible to get up pretty close to 2 grand.


Have you ever been to Reynosa or Progresso Mexico? That's where my fater-in-law goes for dental.


Did you go to that particular dentist because your insurance company gave you a list to pick from? Those on the list are usually more expensive than the ones you find on your own.

And if not then shop around a bit more.

Either way, why would you want to pay an insurance company to take your money, take their cut, and then turn around and pay the dentist when you could just pay the dentist yourself? Insurance should be for things that you could never pay for yourself so paying the middleman makes sense. (and in this case we know that insurance companies make an awful lot of profits)

Now I already have a pretty good guess of an answer to that question. You chose to do it that way because your employer gave you the dental insurance for "free" (after compensating you less in your pay).

So how much of that 40% did you actually pay (in the form of lower wages or premiums)? The answer is that you don't know.
 
Either way, why would you want to pay an insurance company to take your money, take their cut, and then turn around and pay the dentist when you could just pay the dentist yourself? Insurance should be for things that you could never pay for yourself so paying the middleman makes sense. (and in this case we know that insurance companies make an awful lot of profits)

This is something so many people forget... you only need insurance for things you can't afford to pay for. Why would anybody willingly buy dental insurance? In my wildest imagination I cannot imagine any working American who could not afford $2000 for a dental bill. I am not saying it would be easy, but somehow you could get the money. And if you cannot to pay a dental bill, then you certainly can't afford dental insurance.

Anybody who buys dental insurance really doesn't understand the basic principles of economics. It has to be one of the worst deals for the consumer short of putting your money in a Madoff investment scheme.
 
This is something so many people forget... you only need insurance for things you can't afford to pay for. Why would anybody willingly buy dental insurance? In my wildest imagination I cannot imagine any working American who could not afford $2000 for a dental bill. I am not saying it would be easy, but somehow you could get the money. And if you cannot to pay a dental bill, then you certainly can't afford dental insurance.

Anybody who buys dental insurance really doesn't understand the basic principles of economics. It has to be one of the worst deals for the consumer short of putting your money in a Madoff investment scheme.

It falls right up there with optical insurance, employment insurance, and credit card payment insurance.

Which curiously enough I had that last one once. The credit card company called me and asked if I wanted to take out a policy for something like 4 cents on the dollar so that if I ever could not pay my balance they would pay it for me. They made it sound really good. When I looked at my bill I saw just how horrible it was and canceled.

I get "free" optical coverage (I don't get a refund if I don't take it anyway). My glasses cost far less paying full price at Wal-Mart (they don't accept the insurance) than they do paying the price with the insurance at the full service optical shop. Isn't it clear that the optical insurance is really just a buyers club that I have no choice about being a member of? And that it benefits the full service optician and the insurer more than it benefits me?

And since everyone is following Suze Ormon's advice to save 10% of their income they don't need to buy employment insurance.:D Especially since 10% saved belongs to you and premiums paid out will likely never be seen again.
 
Werbung:
Did you go to that particular dentist because your insurance company gave you a list to pick from? Those on the list are usually more expensive than the ones you find on your own.

And if not then shop around a bit more.

Either way, why would you want to pay an insurance company to take your money, take their cut, and then turn around and pay the dentist when you could just pay the dentist yourself? Insurance should be for things that you could never pay for yourself so paying the middleman makes sense. (and in this case we know that insurance companies make an awful lot of profits)

Now I already have a pretty good guess of an answer to that question. You chose to do it that way because your employer gave you the dental insurance for "free" (after compensating you less in your pay).

So how much of that 40% did you actually pay (in the form of lower wages or premiums)? The answer is that you don't know.

Are you under the assumption that I think the cost I paid was not the going rate??? Because I can assure you that it is. At 52 years old... I've known a heck of a lot of people who have paid for root canals and crowns in every way possible.

As to your dental insurance question... I get it because it's not that expensive... mine is only $7.30 every two weeks and that includes 2 free exams and cleaning per year... so that's about a wash.

If there's a downside it's that it has a $1000 per year maximum which if you need any serious dental work... more than things like tooth pulled or fillings you max out pretty quickly.

When you get older you have dental issues more than just mostly fillings like when you are younger. You have gum issues, deep root scaling, crowns etc. and it's not a bad idea to have the insurance.

What I was saying about my father-in-law going to Mexico for his work is he is retired and without dental insurance.
 
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