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Which concept was America founded on?

Discussion in 'Historical Events & Figures' started by USMC the Almighty, Jul 17, 2007.

?

Which concept was America founded on?

  1. individual freedom

    83.3%
  2. collective rights

    16.7%
  1. USMC the Almighty

    USMC the Almighty New Member

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    Individual freedom or collective rights. Which concept was at the heart of this country's founding?
     
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  2. Dude111

    Dude111 Member

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    Originally i think it was founded in FREEDOM,but i see those slowly being taken away......... (Especially since 9/11 but 1984 was the begginging)
     
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  3. Dawkinsrocks

    Dawkinsrocks Well-Known Member

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    It was founded on violence and discrimination sold as freedom and equality.
     
  4. Bunz

    Bunz New Member

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    WOW,
    This is a thread that is been brought back from the past. But it is certainly worthy of discussion. I only wish my jarheaded friend was here to partake.
    Either way, the two are no mutually exclusive of each other in my opinion. We can have both. We have collective rights, that ensure our individual freedoms.
     
  5. Dawkinsrocks

    Dawkinsrocks Well-Known Member

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    Bush has taken the ones you had away.

    You can be imprisoned for years without trial in the land of the free.
     
  6. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

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    I would like to challenge you on that notion. Give me an example of a Collective Right that an Individual can exercise all alone on a deserted island.

    Individual rights, like freedom of speech, religion, press, bear arms etc. an individual can exercise without the need for other people while alone on an island. You don't need someone else around to speak, worship, write etc. etc.

    Collective Rights, such as Healthcare, Jobs, Housing etc. cannot be provided by someone else when no one else is around, so the individual must provide these things himself. You do need a doctor to get healthcare, a boss to have a job and a builder to have a house etc. etc.

    Collective Rights require that someone else provide goods or services to the individual that recieves such benefits and that is a violation of the individual rights of the ones being forced to do the providing.
     
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  7. Dawkinsrocks

    Dawkinsrocks Well-Known Member

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    Your last statement is an interesting one considering how US companies behave around the world.

    BTW if your twleve year old asks for a pair of Nikes why not tell her she is old enough to make her own.
     
  8. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

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    Totally irrelevent to the rights of Americans. If you feel a US company is violating the rights of people in other countries, take it up with the countries who's laws the American companies are following. In most cases, American companies treat their employees in foreign countries with far more dignity and respect than the government those employees live under.

    I wasn't aware that Americans had a "right" to footwear....

    Putting that aside... I would tell her she's old enough to get a job and pay for them herself. I had a job at 12 and used the money to buy things I wanted, she can do so too. She doesn't have a "right" to demand someone else provide her with a pair of Nikes.
    ------------------------------

    Individual Rights can be exercised by a group or collective, Collective Rights cannot be exercised by lone Individuals - Hence, they are mutually exclusive and not compatible.
     
  9. Dawkinsrocks

    Dawkinsrocks Well-Known Member

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    How would you feel if she was working full time in a Nike factory at the age of 12?
     
  10. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

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    1. There are no Nike factories in America
    2. Its illegal for children to work full time in America

    You are off topic with this line of questioning anyway because such a question has no relation to which of the concepts America was founded - Collective or Individual Rights.

    If you wish to discuss American rights, then be my guest.

    Please stay on topic.
     
  11. Dude111

    Dude111 Member

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    Individual liberties have always taken a hit during wartime i guess,read this
     
  12. top gun

    top gun New Member

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    The question itself "Which concept was America founded on?" is somewhat skewed.

    America was founded on several principles. Liberty (freedom) is stated in the Constitution as are references to both common (group) defence and general (general meaning everyone's) Welfare.

    The Preamble states:

    “ We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, ensure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


    It's also always important to remember that times change and national circumstances evolve over hundreds of years. What might have worked fairly well when most Americans lived and worked on farms does not necessarily correlate over well to the needs of a mostly urban business or industrial nation of today.
     
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  13. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

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    Notice that government is charged with PROVIDING common defense while limited to PROMOTING the general welfare. People like yourself have ignored the meaning of these two words in order to PROVIDE general welfare and its going to be the downfall of America.


    Pure pablum... Not since the landing on Plymouth Rock have "MOST" Americans lived and worked on farms. People that bother learning their history know this... our small settlements had grown to bustling towns and major cities by the time the founders penned the constitution. Merchants thrived in the new world. They were able to quickly earn enough to open shops, establish trade routes and hire employees to move society away from being a purely agrarian one, to a truly capitalist society.

    Its important to note that you point to changes in business and industry as an excuse for government to take ever greater control of the population and begin meddling where they have no business - In the Economy. The ONLY regulations and restrictions that should be placed on business and industry are those that directly protect the rights of American citizens, nothing else.
     
  14. samsara15

    samsara15 Member

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    America was founded on property rights for the well to do.

    Even Universal Male Suuferage was not part of America until the Jackson era. Blacks and females could not vote until much later. Collectivism did not become a popular politcal option until much later, either. So the poll really asks a non-question.
     
  15. Ejgertz

    Ejgertz New Member

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    TG,

    I really enjoyed your answer. Thank you for keeping it simple.
     
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