Another gleaming example (U.N.)

[Andy]

Yes and I know some people who have nazi ancestory too and can name all the nazi war criminals...but that doesn't mean they themselves are nazis.

Nazi is an ideology. Jew is a race. German is a Race. Ironic that you should mention the Nazis when their own slaughter of the Jews, didn't require them to practice Judaism. The Nazis slaughtered all the people of Jewish linage, indicating that to the Nazis themselves, Jewish was a race, not just a religion.

I can identify myself as a scottswoman and I could make a case for occupying Scotland and telling Britain to piss off and allow me to occupy Scotland and bring it under its own sovereingty again. And all of that would be in line and correct under your reasoning for Israel.

What if Britain agreed, allowed you to have sovereignty, and then a bunch of people from Ireland came, claimed you were occupying their land, and formed the Highland Liberation Organization, and had their stated goal to wipe out all of Scotland? That's what has happened to the Jews.

No, you're not fooling anyone, least of all Yahweh. The only thing that makes a jew a jew is the Hebrew faith. Without that faith and religious obedience, you have nothing but an ordinary man or woman with no more claims to ancient lands some of their forefathers occupied than do you or I to old (and I mean really old..predating the jewish faith even, old..) areas of Europe.

Yeah, the Yahweh you don't believe in. I'm really scared what the non-believers claim about Yahweh.

Anyway, either way you argue this, it doesn't work. If they don't have a claim, then neither does anyone else. If no one has a claim, then why not them?

If someone else does have a claim, then they also have a claim. I submit their claim is more valid than anyone else's to that land.

So they either have a claim, or they don't have a claim, in either case, they are just as justified to be there as anyone, or more justified.

And bombing on the Sabbath by its very nature is saying those people sitting in the cockpits pulling the bomb levers are not jews.

If they are not Jews, then they are just as justified to protect their people, than as they if they were. Whichever way you wish to look at it, they have a right to retaliate for being attacked.

 

[Sihouette]

Jew is a race. German is a Race

Nope. I know of many blacks, japanese etc. who were born in Germany and call themselves "german". German means " a german citizen"

I know of many people who are jews who got that way by marriage or by indoctrinization. A jew is a person who follows the hebrew faith.


I understand the Ten Commandments of Yahweh pretty well, and have examined the Torah enough to know they are paramount of the Commandments. Their language is pretty simple. And you cannot ad-lib the word of God or Yahweh, for to do so is a sin.

I read that the Sabbath is holy and reserved for quite reflection. Am I right so far? I don't have to be jewish to note this. And I know that bombing innocent women and children for nefarious political purposes when peaceable means are at hand....on the Sabbath...means a real jew's soul would be slated for Eternal Damnation. (Let's just say I've got "insider information" that tells me you don't have to just be a jew for the same fate for the same behavior...we'll leave it at that...)

This is where you don't believe...talking about a non-believer..

 

[Andy]

Nope. I know of many blacks, japanese etc. who were born in Germany and call themselves "german". German means " a german citizen"

I know of many people who are jews who got that way by marriage or by indoctrinization. A jew is a person who follows the hebrew faith.

We will have to agree to disagree. I'm German. I have 100% German blood. I have never been to Germany, nor do I speak the German language, yet I know that I am German by blood. Both my parents are German, and both have a linage that traces back to Germany, and have pictures of our ancestors crossing to America, and have family trees that both spring from German roots, and can be traced to our German clans that existed in Germany, and even rough ideas about where their homeland within Germany is.

I am German by race, and American by nationality.

I understand the Ten Commandments of Yahweh pretty well, and have examined the Torah enough to know they are paramount of the Commandments. Their language is pretty simple. And you cannot ad-lib the word of God or Yahweh, for to do so is a sin.

If you know Yahweh pretty well, then perhaps you know that his word states he will cloud the understanding of the non-believers so they don't know the meaning of his word.

I read that the Sabbath is holy and reserved for quite reflection. Am I right so far? I don't have to be jewish to note this. And I know that bombing innocent women and children for nefarious political purposes when peaceable means are at hand....on the Sabbath...means a real jew's soul would be slated for Eternal Damnation. (Let's just say I've got "insider information" that tells me you don't have to just be a jew for the same fate for the same behavior...we'll leave it at that...)

This is where you don't believe...talking about a non-believer..

Let me use your own words for a moment.

You claim that the people of Israel are Jews, and thus are breaking the commandments by supposedly killing on the Sabbath.

Then in a recent post, you said that people either follow their religion or they don't. You either are a Jew following Judaism, or your not.

Ok, I'll buy that. So if they are killing on the Sabbath, then they must not be Jews. If they are not Jews, then can they really break the Sabbath they don't believe in? Then by what claim do you say they are breaking a law they never intended to follow? Either way, the point doesn't make sense.

What is even more amazing to me is that G-d's word stresses over and over that the laws are designed for the individual to consider for themselves. In other words, no one is supposed to go around saying everyone else is breaking the law, but rather they are supposed to consider their own actions.

Yet here you are attacking others for what violations you claim they are making. But what of yourself? Are you breaking the law by placing yourself as judge over others? What about thou shalt not lie? Or even thou shalt not have any G-d's before me?

Reminds me a bit about Jesus saying why do you worry about the splinter in your brothers eye, and ignore the plank in your own? Go first remove your own faults, then you can talk about someone else.

 

[Sihouette]

Ok, I'll buy that. So if they are killing on the Sabbath, then they must not be Jews. If they are not Jews, then can they really break the Sabbath they don't believe in? Then by what claim do you say they are breaking a law they never intended to follow? Either way, the point doesn't make sense.~ Andy

I can guarantee you it makes sense to them.

The basis of the country "Israel" is the jewish faith. They are acting against the basis of their own country and countrymen when they defy what they were taught is the Law from birth; regardless if, out of conveniece, they choose to defy those Laws.

How orthodox jews can look secular "jews" in the face is beyond me. It would be like fundamentalist christians getting chummy with and buddying up with those who practice witchcraft or perform abortions. The two, devout judaism and secularism cannot both be called "jewish". There is not an inherant "race" of jews. Maybe they'd like to think so, but they consist of all manner of ethnic backgrounds all solidifying under the banner of judaism.

So, I stand behind what I said: Either you adhere to the faith or not. Either you're a jew or not.

And believe me you, they know exactly what I'm talking about...as much as they may try to wiggle and squirm and act like they don't.. For that matter, I think you're up to the same evasion..

 

[Andy]

I can guarantee you it makes sense to them.

Well of course it does to them, because they don't believe the twisted version of Judaism you've claimed here.

The basis of the country "Israel" is the jewish faith. They are acting against the basis of their own country and countrymen when they defy what they were taught is the Law from birth; regardless if, out of conveniece, they choose to defy those Laws.

But to them, they are fulfilling those laws, not defying them.

How orthodox jews can look secular "jews" in the face is beyond me. It would be like fundamentalist christians getting chummy with and buddying up with those who practice witchcraft or perform abortions. The two, devout judaism and secularism cannot both be called "jewish". There is not an inherant "race" of jews. Maybe they'd like to think so, but they consist of all manner of ethnic backgrounds all solidifying under the banner of judaism.

Interesting. I've been friends with muslims, and that doesn't bother me. So why would secular and orthodox Jews be unable to get along?

So, I stand behind what I said: Either you adhere to the faith or not. Either you're a jew or not.

Let's pretend they are not. Are they allowed to defend their people now?

And believe me you, they know exactly what I'm talking about...as much as they may try to wiggle and squirm and act like they don't.. For that matter, I think you're up to the same evasion..

Since we don't have a common world view, I expect you think everyone else is "evading" what you have determined to be the correct world view.

Dare I ask a orthodox Jew if defending their homeland is wrong? Want to take a bet on the answer to that?

 

[Pandora]

Interesting. I've been friends with muslims, and that doesn't bother me. So why would secular and orthodox Jews be unable to get along?

Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox Jews believe that the reason the Messiah has not come yet is because of sinning Jews AKA secular Jews.

They believe if every Jew on earth observed the Shabbat properly then the Messiah would come. But their version of properly is pretty different than Yeshua's version of proper... Its a burdon that really you cant do unless you have a Shabbos goy to do your work.... then again some Ultra Orthodox are against those too

so they dont get along.... one group does not want to be told how to live or what to wear and the other group thinks the first group is holding them back from their religous destiny

 

[Sihouette]

Just like being a receptionist at an abortion clinic might hold a fundamentalist christian back from entering Heaven. Is that what you're saying?

Yes, they get the "unclean" to do their dirty work....makes sense...but one little snag that holds this up is illuminated by this passage..

..Our responsibility at this moment is to focus on the second half of this tragedy - the fact that a Jew was capable of shedding the blood of another Jew. How did we reach this point?

As Torah Jews we are aware that everything of this nature which happens is intended as a lesson from Heaven for us to learn so that we can improve ourselves in our relations with Hashem and with our fellow man. But let us not be guilty of the short-sighted small-minded and politically motivated reactions which fill the media today - with the Left blaming the Right and the Right blaming the Left for splitting the nation into two hostile camps. With the same passion for logic and truth which we bring to the study of gemora and its commentaries, let us try to analyze where all of us have made the mistakes, large and small, which produce an atmosphere in which Jew is capable of murdering Jew. Let us here and now offer a cheshbon hanefesh, a searching of the soul for our entire nation.
Source: http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/2390

I'll tell you, Rabbi Mendel Weinbach how you "reach[ed] this point". Once you've encouraged your younger men and women to go and mindlessly kill non-jews, women and children even.. and turn a blind eye even when they do this for you on the Sabbath, you are in essence breeding an icky false jew. And just a hunch here...Yahweh is not pleased.

So once the false jew goes about abandoning Yahweh's High Laws in favor of doing your dirty work, it is but a small step indeed for his rage to channel him to kill another jew. What's the difference? A man is a man to a secular man...one man's blood is the same red as anothers.

I just hate it when people play dumb..

 

[Andy]

Just like being a receptionist at an abortion clinic might hold a fundamentalist christian back from entering Heaven. Is that what you're saying?

Not logical. This issue, and the other have nothing in common. No rational basis to compare.

I'll tell you, Rabbi Mendel Weinbach how you "reach[ed] this point". Once you've encouraged your younger men and women to go and mindlessly kill non-jews, women and children even.. and turn a blind eye even when they do this for you on the Sabbath, you are in essence breeding an icky false jew. And just a hunch here...Yahweh is not pleased.

The Sabbath has nothing to do with murder. Murder is wrong regardless of the day. It's not "more wrong" because it happened on Saturday.

Again, I don't consider responding to attacks by militants to be murder. I don't presume to know what Yahweh thinks like you do. I certainly don't assume I know what some god from another religion thinks, when I don't subscribe to or believe that religion. That takes some amount of arogance I don't have.

However, I would say this. Any god that expects a group of people to stand idle while their fellow citizens are being killed by a rag tag group murderous killers that blow up their own children... is a horrible aweful god no one should follow. If all of Israel were to reject Judaism, and deny god even exists, I would still fully support them bombing, attacking, and slaughtering these terrorist scum bags simply based principal.

So once the false jew goes about abandoning Yahweh's High Laws in favor of doing your dirty work, it is but a small step indeed for his rage to channel him to kill another jew. What's the difference? A man is a man to a secular man...one man's blood is the same red as anothers.

Yes and terrorist should be killed. So I have no problem with Israels actions.

 

[Sihouette]

Actually yes I do. I believe that Israel has a secular and historic, as well as a religious claim to the land. So I tend to argue this specific issue from a number of different view points.~ Andy

So...there's this tribe of people called "the jews" who have, off and on, occupied the sand trap also known as Israel and other parts of the Middle East? You cite their longstanding presence there and religious claims to the land as well as secular claims as the justification for their being there and pushing the boundries of their occupation back into ancient areas they used to occupy.

Am I right so far? Good.

Now, there's this other ethnic group of peoples I know about that have continuously occupied this other region for perhaps many thousands of years longer than the jews, are so completely into the land they have settled that the land itself is part of their faith, intrinsically and inseparably.

Currently they are being held in check on small and marginal areas, where their birthright, and indeed the very essence of their faith extends far far beyond those regions. And worse, they are being held there be very recent invaders.

Should we support their efforts to expand their boundaries, like Israel? And if not, why not?