"Anti-zionists but we have nothing against the Jews as such"

[abu-afak]

Why should the Jewish people have a "homeland?" There is no homeland for the Buddhists, or the Confucianists, or the Baha'is, or the Hindus, or the Protestants, or the Shintos, or the Taoists, or any other specific religion. Why is it that this particular religion must have a "homeland" (especially someone else's homeland)?

I totally agree with you there. However, I still think your an absoloute *****.

1. Jews are a People and a Race as much as a Religion.

2. Israel is a Secular State.

3. Zionism was a Secular movement!; an outgrowth of the persecution of this People, Not the religion per se.
(Hitler killed by Race, not by Piety, including catholic 'half-jews')

4. Arabs (another similar race/people) have 22 States, all Muslim, none as Secular- some partial, some complete Theocracies like Saudi Arabia; Going for state # 23.

5. 98% of Jews are 'Zionists' in that they support a State of Israel. Israel where it is now.
If you hate 98% of Jews you ARE an Anti-semite.


SAY WHAT? ANTI-SEMITES?
WHO, US ANTI-ZIONISTS?

By Steven Plaut

Say What? Anti-Semites? Who, us anti-Zionists? US? We have nothing against Jews as such. We just hate Zionism and Zionists. We think Israel does not have a right to exist. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. Heavens to Mergatroyd. Marx Forbid. We are humanists. Progressives. Peace lovers.

Anti-Semitism is the hatred of Jews. Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism and Israeli policies. The two have nothing to do with one another. Venus and Mars. Night and Day. Trust us.

Sure, we think the only country on the earth that must be annihilated is Israel. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

[.....]

Naturally, we think that the only people on earth who should never be allowed to exercise the right of self-defense are the Jews. Jews should only resolve the aggression against them through capitulation, never through self-defense. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We only denounce racist apartheid in the one country in the Middle East that is NOT a racist apartheid country. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We refuse to acknowledge the Jews as a people, and think they are only a religion. We do not have an answer to how people who do NOT practice the Jewish religion can still be regarded as Jews. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We think that all peoples have the right to self-determination, except Jews, and including even the make-pretend Palestinian "people".
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

[.....]

We demand that the only country in the Middle East with free speech, free press, or free courts be destroyed. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We oppose military aggression, except when it is directed at Israel. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We really understand suicide bombers who murder bus loads of Jewish children and we insist that their demands be met in full. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We think the only conflict on earth that must be solved through dismembering one of the parties to that conflict is the one involving Israel. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

[.....]

There are Jewish leftist anti-Zionists and we consider this proof that anti-Zionists could not possibly be anti-Semitic. Not even the ones who cheer when Jews are mass murdered. These are the only Jews we think need be acknowledged or respected. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

[....]

We do not think the Jews are entitled to their own state and must submit to being a minority in a Rwanda-style "bi-national state", although no other state on earth, including the 22 Arab countries, should be similarly expected to be deprived of its sovereignty. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We think that Israel's having a Jewish majority and a star on its flag makes it a racist apartheid state.
We do not think any other country having an ethnic-religious majority or having crosses or crescents or "Allah Akbar" on its flag is racist or needs dismemberment.
But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

[.....]

We have no trouble with the fact that there is no freedom of religion in any Arab countries. But we are mad at hell at Israel for violating religious freedom, and never mind that we are never quite sure where or when it does so. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

So how can you possibly say we are anti-Semites? We are simply anti-Zionists. We seek peace and justice, that's all. And surely that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

http://www.freeman.org/m_online/oct03/plaut1.htm

 

[Bunz]

This is quite possibly the most contradictory post I have read in a long time.
Now the hateful nature of it aside, you can wish Israel gone all you like, you arent the only one. Others before you have tried, but the Zionists have managed to defend themselves and expand thier borders in the process.

Here is the first paragraph of your copied commentary.

SAY WHAT? ANTI-SEMITES?
WHO, US ANTI-ZIONISTS?

By Steven Plaut

Say What? Anti-Semites? Who, us anti-Zionists? US? We have nothing against Jews as such. We just hate Zionism and Zionists. We think Israel does not have a right to exist. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. Heavens to Mergatroyd. Marx Forbid. We are humanists. Progressives. Peace lovers.

Then it doesnt take long and then we get this.

Naturally, we think that the only people on earth who should never be allowed to exercise the right of self-defense are the Jews. Jews should only resolve the aggression against them through capitulation, never through self-defense. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

Nothing against the Jews as such? Except that they should willingly allow themselves to be herded towards being conquered. This collection of words by Steven Plaut is frankly out of line, ignorant and seething hate.

 

[abu-afak]

This is quite possibly the most contradictory post I have read in a long time.
Now the hateful nature of it aside, you can wish Israel gone all you like, you arent the only one. Others before you have tried, but the Zionists have managed to defend themselves and expand thier borders in the process.

Here is the first paragraph of your copied commentary.

Then it doesnt take long and then we get this.


Nothing against the Jews as such? Except that they should willingly allow themselves to be herded towards being conquered. This collection of words by Steven Plaut is frankly out of line, ignorant and seething hate.

Huh?
Your post is Incoherent.

 

[abu-afak]

Further:
And a direct challenge to another 9sublime perennial:

Andy, you fail to realise something very important.

The people who had to be kicked out of their homeland to incorporate a modern day Israel don't give two hoots about Judaism because they are not Jews, so the Jews apparent claim to Israel is invalid to them.

NO one "Had to be kicked out" of Israel for the Jews homeland.
The refugees are the result of the Arab Started 1948 War.
The arabs who stayed are now 20% of Israel's citizenry.
-

 

[vyo476]

I'm sorry, was there a point to any of this?

 

[abu-afak]

Yes. Absolutely.

It's prefaced by statements of Lasher and 'supermod' 9sublime.
Making my 'point' Quite obvious.
They, then answered by me in my own words and then an article excerpt.

Then a second post directly challenging 9sublime to debate his position of [just] 'anti-zionism'.

He was here for an hour+ and took a powder; just left; and then you appear threatening to end what he can't answer.
Go figure.

Is there something in this string any less valid than any other here?
Or does it just disagree with your political opinion?
This string is really quite 'Pointed'.

(ON TOPIC responses welcome)

 

[9sublime]

I can hardly understand what point you are trying to make because you are so incoherent abu afak.

 

[bewitched]

I think this sums it up:
Arab Proverb: "First the Saturday People, then the Sunday People"

 

[abu-afak]

I can hardly understand what point you are trying to make because you are so incoherent abu afak.

You really mean you can't answer.
I was quite clear; then even riterated for Vyo476.

You believe Jews are not entitled to a homeland and you hate zionists.

I pointed the fallacies in this position (title post, 1-5) for easy reply and non-evasion (including Jews being a people not just a religion)- really leaving you completely screwed and with no answer.

Then, in a second post, I "Directly challenged"/rebutted you on another assertion ("Had to be kicked out").

Thus your Empty/evasive response.

 

[vyo476]

You believe Jews are not entitled to a homeland and you hate zionists.

Finally, the point emerges...and you're wrong.

Opposition to Israel takes many forms - opposition to Israeli policies, opposition to unilateral US support of Israel, and finally opposition to the existence of Israel. Note that this latter position does not mean "the Jews aren't entitled to a homeland"; opposition to the existence of Israel could just as well mean that people think it shouldn't be where it is, because the location of Israel in the Middle East sparks so many bouts of hostility, or because "Israel" replaced a state that had been promised self-determination since the McMahon-Hussein letters and was subsequently betrayed by Western powers on at least two seperate occassions in regards to their independence.

I would not describe myself as "anti-Zionist" because of the somewhat unfortunate implications of the term (as you pointed out, many people who espouse "anti-Zionism" are just anti-semites in disguise). However, I do believe in being able to disagree with others on a political basis. Just because I dislike Israel's policies or think that plopping it down in the middle of the Middle East was a bad idea does not mean I dislike Jews, kind of like how disagreeing with Mitt Romney doesn't mean I dislike Mormons.

So, in review: we define anti-semitism as racially-motivated and excessive dislike of Jews. We allow anti-Israel statements and discussions because they are political issues and not necessarily racially-motivated. An anti-semite could very well get by on this site if he had logical political arguments and not an overabundance of hate speech; after all, we kick people out based on actions, not ideologies.

Is it clear now?

 

[abu-afak]

Finally, the point emerges...and you're wrong.

Finally you get it despite the point "Emerging" right from the outset, and [even] Numbered by Me 1-5 in the Title post.
AND reiterated subsequently!

Opposition to Israel takes many forms - opposition to Israeli policies, opposition to unilateral US support of Israel, and finally opposition to the existence of Israel. Note that this latter position does not mean "the Jews aren't entitled to a homeland"; opposition to the existence of Israel could just as well mean that people think it shouldn't be where it is, because the location of Israel in the Middle East sparks so many bouts of hostility, or because "Israel" replaced a state that had been promised self-determination since the McMahon-Hussein letters and was subsequently betrayed by Western powers on at least two seperate occassions in regards to their independence.

Alas, I was addressing Lasher/and 9sublime's position which is Specifcally Jews were not entitled to a Homeland, and were based on that they were only a religion.
9sublime remains Mum on this and other points addressed Directly to HIM.

But continuing with you....

As to 'Promised' states/McMahon-Hussein etc...

The Jews were also promised a State by Not only the famous Balfour declaration and British, but by The UN Predecessor League of Nations. A Larger State than they got. Thanks to Arabist elements of the post WWI British govt which also made 'Iraq' and gave it to a Saudi Prince (screwing the Kurds) and 'Jordan' (No Jews allowed) and gave it to yet another Saudi Prince, Abdullah, great grandfather of the current Abdullah.

Transjordan, 77% of the British mandate was lopped off in contravention of earlier promises to the Jews.
Jordan is 70% 'Palestinian'.

The remaining 23% was divided roughly 13-10 for the Jews- Israel/Palestine. (ergo Arabs got 87% of the Mandate).

And Of course, half of the Jews 13% was the thought-useless Negev Desert.

And 2/3 of that 13%, including the half alone that was the Negev was 'State Land' owned by NO Arab, passing from the Ottomans to the British to the Jews.
IOW, Israel got about 4% of the Private land of the British Mandate- some of which they already owned, some subsequently bought.

Also, and contary to 9sublime's stated position, No one had to be "Kicked out". Had the Arabs not started the 1948 War, they would probably be in majority now!

Israel accepted Res 181 in total and immediately.
It did not entail expelling Arabs... and many stayed. Now 20% of Israel.

I would not describe myself as "anti-Zionist" because of the somewhat unfortunate implications of the term (as you pointed out, many people who espouse "anti-Zionism" are just anti-semites in disguise). However, I do believe in being able to disagree with others on a political basis. Just because I dislike Israel's policies or think that plopping it down in the middle of the Middle East was a bad idea does not mean I dislike Jews, kind of like how disagreeing with Mitt Romney doesn't mean I dislike Mormons.

Good. Your Position is Not 9sublime's espoused one and you can answer with a clear conscience. He hasn't answered despite posts directed to him.

One can still be a Zionist and disagree with Israeli policies.
Just as one can be an American and disagree with it's policies; Bush etc.
That doesn't make you against the USA's existence.
Israelis, in very great majority want a two state solution, tho may differ on how.

So, in review: we define anti-semitism as racially-motivated and excessive dislike of Jews. We allow anti-Israel statements and discussions because they are political issues and not necessarily racially-motivated. An anti-semite could very well get by on this site if he had logical political arguments and not an overabundance of hate speech; after all, we kick people out based on actions, not ideologies.

Is it clear now?

As I said in the anti-semitism string- I am for Free Speech- more so than you.

Of Course I am also for Calling a Spade a Spade.. and calling those who do hide behind 'anti-zionism' for that position.
Their only objection is Not to anti-semitism but to those few remaining crude/obtuse
enough to say it in not so many words.

I was glad for the opportunity to reply to you and elaborate my position but...
Your position is NOT that of 9sublime's, to whom this string was addressed.
You do NOT speak for nor have you justified His statements.

"Are we Clear" on that?

 

[9sublime]

OK abu. Heres my position.

I have many Jewish friends. I hate intolerance of other races and religions and try to respect them even if I don't agree with them (even though I am personally anti-organized religion).

However, I do not believe that the Jewish people can regard themselves as a race in the modern world. It is time to accept that you are a religion rather than a race. You are dispersed all over the globe, and you live like citizens of every country you inhabit, you are no different to any of your fellow countrymen except for the religion you follow. Christians do not call themselves a race, Muslims do not call themselves a race etc.

You were a race, and a few thousand years ago you were. And a few thousand years ago you were kicked out of your homeland in an illegal way and since then you have certainly suffered some of the worst atrocities known to man. What the Jews have been through is despicable, and the fact that they are still attacked today for who they are is not acceptable.

However, and I know this is a touchy subject, your hardship and your history as once having a homeland a long time ago does not give you the right to kick other people out of their homeland. You cannot stake a claim to a piece of land in a foreign place on religious grounds - it is not fair on those who already live there.

It is like the Mexicans asking for the southern states back because it used to be theirs, it is not a claim the US would even consider being valid. And those who were displaced when Israel came in - they were not Jewish - why should they have to go through all this for someone elses religious claim and move out of their homes and take it on the chin?

My belief is that the Jews did not have a valid claim for Israel because:

the fact that your ancestors lived there should not affect people 2,000 years later and
and

the fact that it is important to your religion should not affect non-believers living their when you intruded.

That is why I believe Israel should never have been recreated. However, now it is there I do not believe it should be wiped out or anything ridiculous like that - it is too well established now, it would not be fair on those who have been born in Israel and lived there all their life. I think it should just STICK WITHIN THE BORDERS GIVEN BY THE MANDATE WHEN IT WAS FIRST CREATED, AS YOU AGREED.

Not to mention my views on Israels aggressive, irresponsible and provcative responses and attacks on the Arab nations, but thats a whole different getheralltomatter!

 

[abu-afak]

OK abu. Heres my position.

I have many Jewish friends. I hate intolerance of other races and religions and try to respect them even if I don't agree with them (even though I am personally anti-organized religion).

Me too. I'm a Militant Atheist, though a Jew.
Kinda defeats you right there.

I hate creationists and Holy Book Literalists of all type.

This includes OT/Biblical entitlement to the Holy Land.

I make my case for Israel without any Claptrap.
Just recent history. (as I showed at the top of this page)

which leads to the next portion...

However, I do not believe that the Jewish people can regard themselves as a race in the modern world. It is time to accept that you are a religion rather than a race. You are dispersed all over the globe, and you live like citizens of every country you inhabit, you are no different to any of your fellow countrymen except for the religion you follow. Christians do not call themselves a race, Muslims do not call themselves a race etc.

Jews Are a race/people- as I said above and it was the Race of Jews that Created Zionism, NOT the religion.

In fact, the opposition To Zionsim was from the Religous.
And most of the remaining anti-zionist Jews are RELIGOUS, small Orthodox sects like Neturei Karta, and their websites Jew haters love to quote like Jewsnotzionists etc.
I'm sure you know them.

You were a race, and a few thousand years ago you were. And a few thousand years ago you were kicked out of your homeland in an illegal way and since then you have certainly suffered some of the worst atrocities known to man. What the Jews have been through is despicable, and the fact that they are still attacked today for who they are is not acceptable.

We STILL are a Race and a People.
This is both so culturally and Genetically.
I am a Cultural Jew, completely non-religous. Like probably much of American Jewry.

To the degree we are still perscuted it's Racially NOT Religously. I pointed that out in my last.

Have a party

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/12/6769

(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences)

""... A series of analyses was performed to address whether modern Jewish Y-chromosome diversity derives mainly from a common Middle Eastern source population or from admixture with neighboring non-Jewish populations during and after the Diaspora.
DESPITE their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level. Admixture estimates suggested low levels of European Y-chromosome gene flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities. A multidimensional scaling plot placed six of the seven Jewish populations in a relatively tight cluster that was interspersed with Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations, including Palestinians and Syrians. Pairwise differentiation tests further indicated that these Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations were not statistically different.
The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora....."

"....Evidence for Common Jewish Origins.

Several lines of evidence support the hypothesis that Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish neighbors...."

again, above excerpted from the Much Longer:

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/12/6769

Continuing...

However, and I know this is a touchy subject, your hardship and your history as once having a homeland a long time ago does not give you the right to kick other people out of their homeland. You cannot stake a claim to a piece of land in a foreign place on religious grounds - it is not fair on those who already live there.

Asked and answered. AND....

Jews never left the Holy Land since the Roman conquest and remained, tho in small number for about 1500 years. Slowly increasing in the 16th-19th Centuries until they were the largest Constituent of the population in Places like Jerusalem since about... 1840.
(documentation of course available)

Continuous presence and significant settlement are the Claim, NOT Genesis.
A better Claim than Anglos have on the USA, especially any land West of the Ohio River. Make that the Hudson River!

It is like the Mexicans asking for the southern states back because it used to be theirs, it is not a claim the US would even consider being valid. And those who were displaced when Israel came in - they were not Jewish - why should they have to go through all this for someone elses religious claim and move out of their homes and take it on the chin? ..."

I always enjoy these wacky comparisons and make better ones.

Arabs ended up with 99% of the Ottoman Empire.
If one wants to break them down into sub groups, and sub-sub groups, (like 'palestinians' or the other new treat 'Jordanians') (or Haifans!) one can always find injustice. 'Native Jordanians' (whatever the hell that is) are ruled by an imposed Saudi/Hashemite Family.

And Lebanon was carved out of the French Mandate to have a small Christian Majority. But there's not much ruccus about that.

The Kurds (a Large and true ethnic and cultural group unlike 'palestinians') are the people who did the worst.
I'm sure you're always campaigning/posting for a free Kurdistan!

ergo, Including Kurdish land, my guess is Arabs control/rule about 105% of their natural range! Not less.

NO, a better comparison would be.. suppose American Indians ended up with 99% of North America and the settlers/colonists 1%. Say Connecticut. Instead of the Reverse- with whites getting 99%.

Now someone will always say the 'Pommawackwack' indians got screwed, but their father tribe of [North East] Eries, and greater Indian Race did spectacularly well, getting the whole rest of North America from Albany to Vancouver to San Diego.

And in the case of Jews, unlike Anglos in America, Jews
had a steady presence and history on Israel/Connecticut.

Now that's a better comparison of the overall situation.

However, now it is there I do not believe it should be wiped out or anything ridiculous like that - it is too well established now, it would not be fair on those who have been born in Israel and lived there all their life. I think it should just STICK WITHIN THE BORDERS GIVEN BY THE MANDATE WHEN IT WAS FIRST CREATED, AS YOU AGREED.

Jews were quite happy with the borders they were given.
It was the Arabs of course who were not.

Funny thing about War- you can lose land too!

So.. a guy goes into a Casino 3 years in a row and loses all his money.
The 4th year he comes back and says he's going to kill everyone in the place if they don't give him all his money back.

Arabs have had several shots at wiping out the Jews.
How many free ones do you think is fair?
I don't think a small border adjustment is Unfair at this point (the Fence currently runs 3% into the WB and Gaza has been returned entirely).
In fact Res 242 always foresaw a small adjustment in Israel's favor to New 'Secure and recognized' boundaries; Recognizing the old ones were not. Another subject.

 

[9sublime]

I don't have a problem with Israel existing now, understand me there. I'm not some typical Jew bashing loser behind his computer - you have made too many assumptions on me because of other peoples attitudes. Israel is there, I don't want it wiped off the face of the map, I just want it to try and exist peacefully now. However, i know its hard with all the arab nations kicking off - however Israels tactics leave a lot to be desired.

I just have a problem with modern Israels claim to the land. I don't think its right to start forking out land to people based on religious or racial grounds.

And I also have a fundamentally different opinion on you in regards to the Jews being a race - How can you be a Jew but be an atheist? Surely you are no longer a Jew if you do not believe in God, as Jews are different from everyone else because God's chosen people?

You have lived for the last few thousand years as a religon, not a race in any shape or form. It is something you are holding onto in desperation to add extra levy to your position.

 

[abu-afak]

I don't have a problem with Israel existing now, understand me there. I'm not some typical Jew bashing loser behind his computer - you have made too many assumptions on me because of other peoples attitudes. Israel is there, I don't want it wiped off the face of the map, I just want it to try and exist peacefully now. However, i know its hard with all the arab nations kicking off - however Israels tactics leave a lot to be desired.

I understand you're not some OLD Jew Basher.
I saw that from the outset.
I can smell it a mile away.
I could see you were just a better 'Lasher'- but not a valid critic like vyo476, whose position I accept.

"Israel is the New Jew" (Brian Mulroney)
Anti-semitism Has for the most part Morphed into the more PC 'anti-zionism'/Isreal bashing.

I just have a problem with modern Israels claim to the land. I don't think its right to start forking out land to people based on religious or racial grounds.

I explained Israel's claim to the land based on continuous presence and significant settlement, replete with the Ottoman divsion etc.
(I even Bolded that in my last post as well)

you Disingenously ignore that and persist instead with "Biblical entitlement" despite my stated rejection of that doctrine.

Poor show!

And I also have a fundamentally different opinion on you in regards to the Jews being a race - How can you be a Jew but be an atheist? Surely you are no longer a Jew if you do not believe in God, as Jews are different from everyone else because God's chosen people?

I explained this as well both Culturally (me and many many more) and Genetically. (PNAS)

And that Zionism was a Secular movement; in fact it's opposition was mainly from Religous Jews.. and that the remaining Jewish Anti-zionists are mainly also Orthodox Sects like Neturei Karta.

You Disingenoulsy Ignore that as well!

and again persist with a debunked opinion.

9sublime: "...as Jews are different from everyone else because God's chosen people?.."

Careful dude.
Your Anti-Semitism IS creeping out from under your 'anti-zionism' now.

You have lived for the last few thousand years as a religon, not a race in any shape or form. It is something you are holding onto in desperation to add extra levy to your position.

Just another Repeated Lie debunked by me. using many examples from Genetic study to Hitlers Modus (half jews, etc)

All in all, Every single thing You have said is wrong and I explained why.

Yet you just repeat it despite that and offer no rebuttal whatsoever to my fact-filled posts.

You can no longer hide under the 'anti-zionism' (cough) Cloak.
.