Bush,conservatives, and Fascism

[Popeye]

????? I suspect the Dems will likely take the presidency and some more seats in 2008 so I dont know what you are going on about or what you think I am in denial about ya freakin loon.

I'm glad we're in agreement, ya freakin loon.

 

[palerider]

Not all the left are for growing government. I'm not.

What are your ultimate goals for society? That is, what would society look like if you could form it to your liking and what sort of government would it take to make it happen?

 

[palerider]

Bush doesn't represent liberalism either. Big government is not the sole plank of liberalism and the ways in which he is expanding government is in areas that conservatives typically want strengthened.

Drug entitlements and wasted money on a failing educational system? Those represent the largest growth of government in a very long time. Exactly which conservatives do you think are in favor of this?

 

[9sublime]

Small, non-intrusive government who respects peoples privacy and individual freedom. The main role of the government is to make sure that they keep the poor out of bad poverty and do not allow the rich above the law.

 

[palerider]

The Medicare Prescription Drug Act of 2003 has a 10 year cost estimate of 534 billion, passed by a Republican controlled Congress. Say they are not true conservatives, if you must, but the Republican party definitely still represents the right wing. I don't see anything "small" about 534 billion.

Who ever said that they were conservatives? Look at the vote on the drug bill and the republican no votes will identify those who still retain some of their conservativism.

You are politically naive if you have believed that republican = conservative. Conservative is right, not republicanism. So much of what you believe and argue for is based in terribly flawed misconceptions. It is sad that you aren't open to having them identified and correcting your position as more valid information is revealed to you.

 

[palerider]

Small, non-intrusive government who respects peoples privacy and individual freedom. The main role of the government is to make sure that they keep the poor out of bad poverty and do not allow the rich above the law.

And how does a government do that without an iron fist and a grasping hand? Someone has to pay to keep the poor out of poverty because the government certainly isn't going to lift them out of poverty.

 

[palerider]

Edit: my attempt below looks terrible, but im sure you recognize the idea.


----------------Authoritarian/Fascism-------------------

Left/Communism---------------------Right/Neo-Liberalism

----------------Libertarian/Anarchism--------------------


Hitler was a right leaning Authoritarian, while Stalin was a far left Authoritarian. Stalin was a Communist, Hitler was a Fascist.

This has nagged at the corner of my mind since you posted it. Describe to me exactly what it was that you believe hitler did that would suggest that he leaned right in his authoritarianism while stalin leand left in his. Or did you just get this from some web site and accept it becuause it seems to agree with your preconcieved political notions?

As a side note, the very quadrants that you are using are flawed. You place right which is conservativism side by side with neo-liberalism which is clearly left. Conservativism is classical liberalism of the sort this country was founded on. Modern liberalism or neo liberalism is far left of anything that even resembles classical liberalism.

Feel free to answer or not answer the quadrant thing as you like. My primary interest is the hitler/stalin issue.

 

[Coyote]

Drug entitlements and wasted money on a failing educational system? Those represent the largest growth of government in a very long time. Exactly which conservatives do you think are in favor of this?

"Corporate welfare" for large business', the Department of Homeland Security (is this level of governmental expansion really necessary for increased security? Could it not be done by a tightening up of what was there already?).

Just out of curiosity, how do you define liberals and conservatives and paleo-this and neo-that? What is a classical liberal? There are a whole lot of labels being thrown around these days that I never heard before and I suspect half are thrown out by folks who don't know what they mean. I don't, so I'm not using them.

What do you mean by "drug entitlements" - do you mean health care in general? Prescription drug benefits? The huge amount of money going to pharmaceutical companies as a result of government contracts?

In general, I think the federal govenrment is too big. Where it is too big, where regulation occurs, I probably disagree with most conservatives.

 

[jb_1430]

Would take a pretty tortured arguement to show how taking less tax money from corporations is a growth of government.
And Bush wanted an OFFICE of Homeland Security. It was the Dems who insisted upon a department.

"Corporate welfare" for large business', the Department of Homeland Security (is this level of governmental expansion really necessary for increased security? Could it not be done by a tightening up of what was there already?).

Just out of curiosity, how do you define liberals and conservatives and paleo-this and neo-that? What is a classical liberal? There are a whole lot of labels being thrown around these days that I never heard before and I suspect half are thrown out by folks who don't know what they mean. I don't, so I'm not using them.

What do you mean by "drug entitlements" - do you mean health care in general? Prescription drug benefits? The huge amount of money going to pharmaceutical companies as a result of government contracts?

In general, I think the federal govenrment is too big. Where it is too big, where regulation occurs, I probably disagree with most conservatives.

 

[Popeye]

Who ever said that they were conservatives? Look at the vote on the drug bill and the republican no votes will identify those who still retain some of their conservativism.

You are politically naive if you have believed that republican = conservative. Conservative is right, not republicanism. So much of what you believe and argue for is based in terribly flawed misconceptions. It is sad that you aren't open to having them identified and correcting your position as more valid information is revealed to you.

Let me say this, I now accept the fact that Republicanism does not necessarily equal conservatism, in some cases. However, the Republican party continues to represent the right wing and the spending goes on. So, I assume you are ready to concede that the Republican party has, for the most part, been almost completely hijacked by the neocon movement. Why then, do you continue to defend the party that, by your definition, has become dominated by neocons?

 

[palerider]

"Corporate welfare" for large business', the Department of Homeland Security (is this level of governmental expansion really necessary for increased security? Could it not be done by a tightening up of what was there already?).

I hear that term bandied about a lot but no one says what they mean by it. Tell me, what exactly, is "corporate welfare" and how does it amount to an expansion of government?

Just out of curiosity, how do you define liberals and conservatives and paleo-this and neo-that? What is a classical liberal? There are a whole lot of labels being thrown around these days that I never heard before and I suspect half are thrown out by folks who don't know what they mean. I don't, so I'm not using them.

A classical liberal and a modern conservative are the same thing and to know what they want, refer to your constitution. Few liberals would be happy living under a government that was actually constrained by the constitution.

Paleo conservative is a conservative is a classical liberal not to be confused with neo conservatives who are actually modern liberals who have seen the failure of liberalism written on the wall and moved across the aisle toward conservativism only they have brought some of their liberal baggage with them and attempted to re package it as some form of conservativism.

What do you mean by "drug entitlements" - do you mean health care in general? Prescription drug benefits? The huge amount of money going to pharmaceutical companies as a result of government contracts?

Specifically, I was talking about the Rx drug benefit.

 

[palerider]

Let me say this, I now accept the fact that Republicanism does not necessarily equal conservatism, in some cases. However, the Republican party continues to represent the right wing and the spending goes on. So, I assume you are ready to concede that the Republican party has, for the most part, been almost completely hijacked by the neocon movement. Why then, do you continue to defend the party that, by your definition, has become dominated by neocons?

But you don't seem to know who the right wing is and what they want. Spending is not something that the right wing (conservatives) want. Drastic reductions in spending and government programs characterizes what conservatives want.

I will concede that the republican party has moved left as a result of past liberals re packaging their ideologies in a form that can be passed off to the politically naive as conservativism. The excessive spending is the baggage that the ex liberal neocons have brought with them. The difference between them and liberals on spending, however, is that they have observed that whenever taxes are reduced that the revenues pouring into the government's treasury increase without the bad economic effects of tax increases and actually fund their spending via tax cuts and expaning economies rather than tax hikes and the inevetable damage that they do to the economy.

And I don't defend parties. I may defend a particular action and always have one or more specific reasons for defending that action, but I do not defend parties. You hold that misconception because your bias requires you to believe that if one defends a single issue of a party, that one must, agree with everything that party is doing. I suppose you believe that of everyone because apparently you tow the line on all liberal issues. I don't know that I have seen you dissaggree with anything liberalism stands for.

 

[Popeye]

I hear that term bandied about a lot but no one says what they mean by it. Tell me, what exactly, is "corporate welfare" and how does it amount to an expansion of government?

In 2006 the federal government spent 92 billion on subsidies and tax breaks for such needy recipients as Boeing, Xerox, IBM, GE, and Dow Chemical. I don't know about you, but that's my definition of "corporate welfare".

 

[9sublime]

And how does a government do that without an iron fist and a grasping hand? Someone has to pay to keep the poor out of poverty because the government certainly isn't going to lift them out of poverty.

An iron fist and a grasping hand? If we had a smaller government, they would have less to pay for, and more to spend helping the people.

 

[TVoffBrainOn]

This has nagged at the corner of my mind since you posted it. Describe to me exactly what it was that you believe hitler did that would suggest that he leaned right in his authoritarianism while stalin leand left in his. Or did you just get this from some web site and accept it becuause it seems to agree with your preconcieved political notions?

As a side note, the very quadrants that you are using are flawed. You place right which is conservativism side by side with neo-liberalism which is clearly left. Conservativism is classical liberalism of the sort this country was founded on. Modern liberalism or neo liberalism is far left of anything that even resembles classical liberalism.

Feel free to answer or not answer the quadrant thing as you like. My primary interest is the hitler/stalin issue.

Stalin and Hitler were both socially Authoritarian, But economically Stalin was a pure Socialist, while Hitler's economic policies were more a blend of both State and Private Sector. A more Keynesian Theory towards the economy.

neo-liberal is NOT far left at all. neo liberalism is corporatism, globalization, and even protectionism. There is nothing economically socialist about neo-liberalism.

I find that most of what you are saying is that conservativism is on the right, and any other social or economic political philosphy is on the left.