California Proposition 8

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I pose a question to you and please be honest and answer if you can? Does gay marriage hinder the procreation process in heterosexual marriages? ~Loose Change
No, and yes. No in the immediate sense. Yes in the longterm weighed against the increase of homosexuals in a population we will expect as a result of the logical conclusion I presented on the previous page.

The real nutshell of this argument hides an even deeper kernel of interest. That kernel has to do with setting the norms within a society to aspire to. I've been at that all along but nobody seems to want to discuss it. Or some do and their only comment is [paraphrased] "so what if homosexuality is normalized, it doesn't matter!". I say it does. There's the debate.

I've hung out around San Francisco and I will tell you there is a gay culture there that assimilates its surroundings. It does so by normalizing deviant sexuality and then wrenching the arms of people opposed by using reverse profiling, calling those people "haters" "bigots" and so on.. Their social "territory" has been expanding and spreading outward into neighboring communities. I've seen pressure in schools there for young children to "get with the program" [of being gay].

I know of three young women who were predated as girls by an older lesbian and now are "bisexual" when before they used to chase boys. When they would be interested in a boy, the lesbian stalked them and would become psychologically abusive to them and sabotage the budding relationship in a serial fashion until her targets submitted totally. I wish I could say this is an isolated incident but then I read the gay vernacular that includes terms for this exact type of recruitment.

Can you imagine a society where this is the norm? The whole thing about deviant sexuality is that once you step outside the norm of sex for procreation and do so in such an obtuse way as to utterly shun the opposite gender as an acceptable partner in any circumstance, you really don't have any more stops to that behavior. Literally if a woman can sleep with a woman or a man with a man, it is the direct message that "anything goes". And I don't mean this sexually, but rather psychologically. This is an important thing to bear in mind when considering the impact of these sexual arrangements when presented to developing minds.

Homosexuals like to counter this point with "we are capable of a loving monogamous relationship too!" And what do we then see? We see one of them taking the "feminine" role and the other taking the "masculine" role; nearly in every case without exception. At first glance this seems benign, like "so what?". But if you look deeper at the message that children are absorbing from this it is this: "look kids, it's OK to be insane." No, really. What other way can you describe such a situation to children with? That's why I take Mare to task regularly. I'm trying to get people to see that a man amputating his own penis in order to play at another gender role is BIZARRE. That I would even need to point that out underscores the effectiveness of the reverse bigotry utilizing the very effective social vehicle of not wanting to make waves in the presence of a perceived more powerful entity [more abusive one]. This is the malady of so-called "political correctness". And the gay-lobby is milking it for every drop its worth. Insanity likes to protect its denialisms. It becomes enraged when anyone uses logic to dismantle them. The common thread that most responders in this thread use [as does most of gay-lobbyists] is their need to not look deeper into the origins of why they role-play genders and refuse to have anything to do with the opposite gender in real life. Denial is fierce, it is potent and it is strong and it is abusive when challenged..

I offer again the conversation, for example, of a child of two lesbians:

"Mommy, how come if you don't like men, why does other mommy wear men's clothes, cut her hair like a man and talk in a deep voice?"

Please humor me, how do you answer a question like that from a child to their satisfaction without resorting to "just because" as the answer? [which is crazy-making to a young mind trying to sort out its world]. Please, indulge me and explain your answers?

If every person considering voting on the gay marriage issue spent a week living in the proximity or within a gay community like San Francisco, I think then they would be better prepared to get a birdseye view of what the future holds for America in general. Look at the gay culture. Immerse yourself in their terminology. Investigate the origins of those words and ponder why it is that they use them. See their slant from every single angle both benevolent and seedy and remember that this entire package will be on the rise if their culture is normalized and presented to our future generations that way. Then vote.

Like I said, the debate is one of subjective preference. I've seen the gay culture and my subjective preference is that it should not be allowed to dismantle marriage to slip itself in as "normal sex" between two people. That is my right to say so and I can say so without being reverse-profiled as you see in nearly every post in this thread except my own.
 
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The same baseless fallacy once again, seeing gay people doesn't make people gay. Even children raised in gay households are no more likely to be gay than children raised in hetero households.

Poor Siho, you might as well be shouting, "HEY!, HEY!, HEY!" :D
 
Why observe and misquote? Why not quote and set the record straight? Your comments border on ad hominems.

Mare and I agree that the sex drive can be manipulated by exterior conditions after birth. I knew it all along really and hence the reason gay vernacular includes terms for the purposeful induction of young into their ranks..

So you're saying that gay adults are pedophiles grooming young children to be gay? That's so profoundly inaccurate that all one can really say now is...

You are the newly installed queen of CRAZY TALK!
:rolleyes:

 
Siho says: "Mare and I agree that the sex drive can be manipulated by exterior conditions after birth."

This is a complete misrepresentation of my position. ANYTHING can be manipulated after birth by exterior conditions, you can be run over by a bus, elected Pope, have a lobotomy, get an education, or do like Siho did and remain ignorant. The example I gave to which Siho is refering is that I said that HER sexual response could be altered by someone with a blowtorch. :eek:
 
Just stopped by to see how this thread could possibly be keeping on...

(Yeah, I know, it shows--abject boredom!)

Seems like, if I recall correctly, that Mare's not really "in it" for the sex anyhow. Mare, did you get the aftermarket modifications (please forgive the use of that imagery--trying not to get too serious) so that you could live some facsimile of a female's life simply in the "outside the bedroom" world? I suppose another way of asking would be a question like "what did you expect or want out of the deal?" And, if you had life to do all over again, how would you rather it to have gone from installed equipment forward?
 
Siho says: "Mare and I agree that the sex drive can be manipulated by exterior conditions after birth."

This is a complete misrepresentation of my position. ANYTHING can be manipulated after birth by exterior conditions, you can be run over by a bus, elected Pope, have a lobotomy, get an education, or do like Siho did and remain ignorant. The example I gave to which Siho is refering is that I said that HER sexual response could be altered by someone with a blowtorch. :eek:

SOOOOO who are you going to spend the Holidays with? Are you cooking at your place or traveling?
 
Just stopped by to see how this thread could possibly be keeping on...

(Yeah, I know, it shows--abject boredom!)

Seems like, if I recall correctly, that Mare's not really "in it" for the sex anyhow. Mare, did you get the aftermarket modifications (please forgive the use of that imagery--trying not to get too serious) so that you could live some facsimile of a female's life simply in the "outside the bedroom" world? I suppose another way of asking would be a question like "what did you expect or want out of the deal?" And, if you had life to do all over again, how would you rather it to have gone from installed equipment forward?

Yes, I had the reassignment surgery, and no, it doesn't work (though for some trannies it does). If I had to do it over again I would in a heartbeat. My life is SO MUCH BETTER now than it was before. I'm just NOT a guy, I didn't like pretending to be one, I'm far more comfortable interacting with the world from the female perspective.

The lack of a sex life is no big deal, I was soooooo tired of the incessant male sex drive that I'm more than willing to trade it in for no sex life at all.

It's interesting to note that Siho is the only woman who has given me unending grief about my transition. Some men have done the same, mostly preachers and fundies like my brothers, but by and large people have been really good about it, especially women, many of whom have gone out of their way to help me with advice and friendship. Everytime we speak at one of the Universities we meet more people who are friendly and interested, more open-minded people who want to get an education. It's really very encouraging to talk to the the students and realize that most of them see through the religious bigotry and silly arguments about gay and trans people.

Transsexuals aren't in it for the sex, transsexualism is a birth defect in which the physical presentation of gender is out of sync with the internal sense of one's gender. It's about gender and gender presentation, not about sex. Some people say that sex is between your legs, but gender is between your ears. People who try to make it all about sex are just ignorant.
 
SOOOOO who are you going to spend the Holidays with? Are you cooking at your place or traveling?

If the weather is good we're going to visit our kids and I'm going to do some work on the younger boy's house while I'm there. We'll have the same kind of vegetarian dinner that we had at Thanksgiving since we're all vegetarians.

And you?
 
If the weather is good we're going to visit our kids and I'm going to do some work on the younger boy's house while I'm there. We'll have the same kind of vegetarian dinner that we had at Thanksgiving since we're all vegetarians.

And you?

I'm thinking of organizing an area get together for all of those deviant sexual perverts that are longing to sit around and watch and discuss the finite details of animal masturbation and how the imprinting of 'DUMMY STUDS' could/would possibly make the animal become enamored by that little bit of 'FLUFF' and taking a poll for the area gay/lesbians to see if the 'GANG MENTALITY' that is so prevalent on the west coast has a basis for the way in which the confused 'lessor thinking human Siho' seems to THINK that all gay/lesbians are child stalkers just looking for their next victim...but basically other then that, I'll have a quiet get together with my Mother In-Law and maybe my son! AND I've cleaned 12 geese so I'll probably have cooked goose and some other side dishes! :eek::D;)
 
I'm thinking of organizing an area get together for all of those deviant sexual perverts that are longing to sit around and watch and discuss the finite details of animal masturbation and how the imprinting of 'DUMMY STUDS' could/would possibly make the animal become enamored by that little bit of 'FLUFF' and taking a poll for the area gay/lesbians to see if the 'GANG MENTALITY' that is so prevalent on the west coast has a basis for the way in which the confused 'lessor thinking human Siho' seems to THINK that all gay/lesbians are child stalkers just looking for their next victim...but basically other then that, I'll have a quiet get together with my Mother In-Law and maybe my son! AND I've cleaned 12 geese so I'll probably have cooked goose and some other side dishes! :eek::D;)

Sounds like a full day. Remember that the little kids have to be kept in cages away from any other influences till the imprinting has solidified--10-15 years should be adequate, don't you think? Oh yeah, estrous odors are really important according to Siho, so be sure and have lots of them around. I get mine at Walgreen's Drug in the handy aerosol applicators, but Siho gets hers in the 55 gallon drum and puts them on with a roller.
 
Yes, I had the reassignment surgery, and no, it doesn't work (though for some trannies it does). If I had to do it over again I would in a heartbeat. My life is SO MUCH BETTER now than it was before. I'm just NOT a guy, I didn't like pretending to be one, I'm far more comfortable interacting with the world from the female perspective.

The lack of a sex life is no big deal, I was soooooo tired of the incessant male sex drive that I'm more than willing to trade it in for no sex life at all.

It's interesting to note that Siho is the only woman who has given me unending grief about my transition. Some men have done the same, mostly preachers and fundies like my brothers, but by and large people have been really good about it, especially women, many of whom have gone out of their way to help me with advice and friendship. Everytime we speak at one of the Universities we meet more people who are friendly and interested, more open-minded people who want to get an education. It's really very encouraging to talk to the the students and realize that most of them see through the religious bigotry and silly arguments about gay and trans people.

Transsexuals aren't in it for the sex, transsexualism is a birth defect in which the physical presentation of gender is out of sync with the internal sense of one's gender. It's about gender and gender presentation, not about sex. Some people say that sex is between your legs, but gender is between your ears. People who try to make it all about sex are just ignorant.
Well, I don't personally don't see lumping all such folk together.

But... to be absolutely fair, there are many predatory gays as Sihouette describes. The probable tendency of them to vote the same party as you apparently do should NOT either excuse them their behavior nor lead to denial of the existence of their reprehensible behavior. It seems to be a fact of debate in general that either side will drag some tangent in and attempt to score by way of drawing a line of association that's not particularly fair. The end result is usually just a mess, and in this case a never-ending one, it seems.

The only bottom line (no pun intended) in all the zigs and zags of this particular debate that I would chafe at is if a group uses political maneuverings that end up netting entitlements that I don't think are fair. For instance, if a whole bunch of cross-gendered folks ended up with a concession that funded virtually unlimited reassignment surgeries with public money (my tax dollars at work), I'd be more than a little upset. And that because I didn't bring them into existence and I don't think that I should have to pay a tax to alleviate their "suffering". And if that tax were to be levied through a "public option", it wouldn't matter--it'd be the same thing.

By the same token, there are health issues that I have or might eventually acquire that I don't think are any of your business funding as well. As such, I'm not going to have them dealt with or if I do it'll be with my own money. When my time comes, I'd rather die with my boots on out in the wilderness than go the route that I've seen many seniors take for that last year.

Sihouette, Mare's penis and what he does with it isn't really any of your business. In the big, wide world, hundreds of thousands of kids are born with very ambiguous equipment and it does not stop with the visible equipment, no matter how convenient it would be for your argument if that were the case. Yes, you're right that there are some VERY malignant people who are true sexual deviants that have only one thing in mind: the debasement of others.

But it's still unseemly to mix 'em together...
 
Sihouette, Mare's penis and what he does with it isn't really any of your business.
True, just as long as he doesn't seek to parade his disfigurement as normal for kids to aspire to. When he does that, it becomes all of our business. If the GLBT etc. group wasn't lobbying for inclusion in the term "normal" [via marriage] we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
 
Well, I don't personally don't see lumping all such folk together.

But... to be absolutely fair, there are many predatory gays as Sihouette describes. The probable tendency of them to vote the same party as you apparently do should NOT either excuse them their behavior nor lead to denial of the existence of their reprehensible behavior. It seems to be a fact of debate in general that either side will drag some tangent in and attempt to score by way of drawing a line of association that's not particularly fair. The end result is usually just a mess, and in this case a never-ending one, it seems.

The only bottom line (no pun intended) in all the zigs and zags of this particular debate that I would chafe at is if a group uses political maneuverings that end up netting entitlements that I don't think are fair. For instance, if a whole bunch of cross-gendered folks ended up with a concession that funded virtually unlimited reassignment surgeries with public money (my tax dollars at work), I'd be more than a little upset. And that because I didn't bring them into existence and I don't think that I should have to pay a tax to alleviate their "suffering". And if that tax were to be levied through a "public option", it wouldn't matter--it'd be the same thing.

By the same token, there are health issues that I have or might eventually acquire that I don't think are any of your business funding as well. As such, I'm not going to have them dealt with or if I do it'll be with my own money. When my time comes, I'd rather die with my boots on out in the wilderness than go the route that I've seen many seniors take for that last year.

Sihouette, Mare's penis and what he does with it isn't really any of your business. In the big, wide world, hundreds of thousands of kids are born with very ambiguous equipment and it does not stop with the visible equipment, no matter how convenient it would be for your argument if that were the case. Yes, you're right that there are some VERY malignant people who are true sexual deviants that have only one thing in mind: the debasement of others.

But it's still unseemly to mix 'em together...

You're right, there are sexual predators, but gays are no more likely to be predators than anyone else and gays represent only about 8% of the population. Heterosexual predators are a vastly larger group of people and they are not targeted as a group the way gays are and that's the bottom line for me. Persecuting a whole group of people because some of them are predators is bigotry. Siho has no proof of her contention about "imprinting" and "fixed" sexual attitudes in humans.

As far as I know there are no publicly funded sexual reassignment surgeries (SRS), insurance doesn't even cover any of it. The idea of "unlimited" reassignment surgeries is sort of a non sequitor in that the number of transsexuals is a tiny fraction of 1% of the population, and as far as I know there has been no drive to get SRS funded publicly. Nobody wants to pay other people's health care, but singling out trannies and not talking about all the public money spent on indigent cigarette smokers is irrational.

I would appreciate it if you refered to me by my real gender: Female, please. The fact that I was born with a birth defect is not my fault. It's "Mare" Tranquillity for a reason.
 
But your DNA is male and you were born with a penis and testicles. I will therefore always refer to you as he. Can't answer for Pidgey.

Your role-playing begins and ends at your own skin. Asking people to play along is asking them to join in your insanity and many people just aren't willing to do that. Just because you choose to do something doesn't make it right in other people's eyes. It's your body but we have our own minds.
 
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True, just as long as he doesn't seek to parade his disfigurement as normal for kids to aspire to. When he does that, it becomes all of our business. If the GLBT etc. group wasn't lobbying for inclusion in the term "normal" [via marriage] we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

My reassignment surgery is NORMAL for a person with my birth defect. Your idiotic arguments completely bypass the very real medical issues I have dealth with. Imprinting doesn't influence the levels of hormones in the body, nor does it change the hormone receptors in the brain and body. Imprinting doesn't interfere with the process of puberty so that it takes nearly 20 years to complete.

The American Medical Association has been using the Benjamin Standards of Care as the "normal" treatment for transsexualism for more than 40 years now and it works very well. Your argument is baseless imagining on your part with not a single shred of proof outside of the barn. Your selective indignation exposes your bigotry for what it is. Fixating on one tiny portion of the population and attempting to punish them while ignoring the larger population and the much larger problem of their predation makes you look like a Nazi blaming the Jews for all the problems. Heil! Siho. HEY!, HEY!, HEY!
 
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