Capital Punishment

No, I don't see a logical flaw. One is the result of a painstaking legal system and the other is nothing more than a decision by a single individual to kill another individual.

I would like to see stricter standards of evidence in order to get a conviction for capital punishment, but tere are those who simply do not deserve to live out thier lives.

It was made clear in the abortion thread that you simply do not have any comprehension regarding the idea of the NATURAL RIGHTS OF MAN -- the idea that lends validity to the american constitution itself.

If a law can be made to justify state murder, against the very principles on which the constitution stands, then it would be a simple matter to give a woman permission to terminate her pregnancy, no? After all, rules of court are merely forms, NOT SUBSTANCE, of the judicial system.

Therein lies the LOGICAL FLAW, if it wasn't apparent enough for you the first time.
 
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all that paper was saying is "arrest rates lower crime." wow. holy ****. i would have never thought of that.(rolls eyes) if you arrest people than they cant commit crimes....... becuase they are in jail! that doesnt mean that people will be less likely to murder someone if we remove the death penalty.

You just conceded the debate, moron!

Arrest rates indicate the effeciency of law enforcement.

Arrest rates (not execution rates) reduce crime rates.

Duh?

i fail to see how that little report, that you stole from someone else, helps to back up your arguement that the death penalty isnt a detterent.

The study was amply footnoted. So you really can't say I stole it, now, can you?

It said:

"..Empirically, deterrence appears to be the more important factor, particularly for property crimes."

The study was differentiating between deterrence and incapacitation. The form of punishment (as in capital punishment) is incapacitation.

Duh?

maybe the death penalty would be more of an effective detterent if all you liberals wouldn't keep us from using it. death penalty rates have dropped over the years considerably. also homicide rates have risen over the years. if it isnt an effective detterent than look in the mirror and you will see who is to blame

Do you feel the need to label people as 'liberal' and 'conservative' to make a point? Or do you just resort to it when your argument is ABSOLUTELY BEREFT OF FACTS AND LOGIC, hmmm?
 
I don't feel that I should have to feed someone who murdered someone else for the rest of his "life without parole" sentence. If you willfully take another life for greedy purposes, then why do YOU deserve to live? Of course it would be a lot cheaper for the taxpayers if everyone got a life sentence, and the length of that sentence was decided by who out of the kindness of their heart wanted to keep paying to feed you. When "donations" run out, so does your life sentence.

Whether you deserve to live or not isn't for the state to determine.

That is what 'unalienable' means -- a word i'm sure you have been made familiar with in highschool civics.
 
It was made clear in the abortion thread that you simply do not have any comprehension regarding the idea of the NATURAL RIGHTS OF MAN -- the idea that lends validity to the american constitution itself.

If a law can be made to justify state murder, against the very principles on which the constitution stands, then it would be a simple matter to give a woman permission to terminate her pregnancy, no? After all, rules of court are merely forms, NOT SUBSTANCE, of the judicial system.

Therein lies the LOGICAL FLAW, if it wasn't apparent enough for you the first time.


Capital punishment is self defense on the part of the state. There is no logical flaw other than your own. And you made nothing clear in the abortion thread other than that you were unable to defend your position.
 
Whether you deserve to live or not isn't for the state to determine.

That is what 'unalienable' means -- a word i'm sure you have been made familiar with in highschool civics.

I suppose you didn't do very well in high school civics. Clearly you don't have a grasp of what the word meant to the men who acknowledged those unalienable rights.

There is only one unalienable right and that is the right to be free from aggression. That is, you have a right to not have force initiated against you. The unalienable rights described by the founders all flow from this one unalienable right. When someone is murdered, someone else initiated force against their life. When someone is enslaved, someone else initiated force against their liberty, and theft is an initiation of force against someones personal property (the pursuit of happiness refers to property rights).

Capital punishment is a defensive force, but rather than aggression, it is a just and valid response to it. When we kill those who have been aggressors against us (murderers) we are not violating any unalienable right that they can claim. We are not violating their right to be free from aggressive force, rather we are protecting our own right to be free from that force. The punishment of the law is a response to aggressive force, not an initiation of it. Defense and punishment in proportion to the crime committed in no way violates an aggressors unalienable right to be free from the initiation of force.

If you favor locking away criminals then you are just as guilty of violating their (in your view) unalienable rights as those who favor the death penalty because the right to be free is as unalienable as the right to live.
 
Capital punishment is self defense on the part of the state. There is no logical flaw other than your own.

Nonsense.

The social contract is the perfect union of the body politic and its individual members. Self-defense cannot be invoked against one's self.

You are groping for logic when it is ostensibly ABSENT in your argument.

And you made nothing clear in the abortion thread other than that you were unable to defend your position.

You're reason in the abortion thread, as I recall, was the legal dictionary's definition of person.

My reason was dependent on the political theory of the natural rights of man -- a theory that has been concieved long before the american constitution.

You have no claim to intellectual honesty if you cannot even admit to these simple facts.
 
I suppose you didn't do very well in high school civics. Clearly you don't have a grasp of what the word meant to the men who acknowledged those unalienable rights.

There is only one unalienable right and that is the right to be free from aggression. That is, you have a right to not have force initiated against you. The unalienable rights described by the founders all flow from this one unalienable right. When someone is murdered, someone else initiated force against their life. When someone is enslaved, someone else initiated force against their liberty, and theft is an initiation of force against someones personal property (the pursuit of happiness refers to property rights).

Capital punishment is a defensive force, but rather than aggression, it is a just and valid response to it. When we kill those who have been aggressors against us (murderers) we are not violating any unalienable right that they can claim. We are not violating their right to be free from aggressive force, rather we are protecting our own right to be free from that force. The punishment of the law is a response to aggressive force, not an initiation of it. Defense and punishment in proportion to the crime committed in no way violates an aggressors unalienable right to be free from the initiation of force.

Let me refresh your memory of highschool civics, if I may be permitted:

"Inalienable" (or "unalienable") is a term borrowed from English common law. Some property rights were alienable (they could be sold or granted) and some were inalienable (they could only be inherited according to fixed rule).


History

The idea that certain rights are inalienable was found in early Islamic law and jurisprudence, which denied a ruler "the right to take away from his subjects certain rights which inhere in his or her person as a human being." Islamic rulers could not take away certain rights from their subjects on the basis that "they become rights by reason of the fact that they are given to a subject by a law and from a source which no ruler can question or alter. These ideas may have influenced John Locke's concept of inalienable rights through his attendance of lectures given by Edward Pococke, a professor of Arabic studies.

In 17th-century England, philosopher John Locke discussed natural rights in his work, and identified them as being "life, liberty, and estate (or property)", and argued that such fundamental rights could not be surrendered in the social contract. These ideas were claimed as justification for the rebellion of the American colonies. As George Mason stated in his draft for the Virginia Declaration of Rights, "all men are born equally free," and hold "certain inherent natural rights, of which they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity."

The distinction between alienable and unalienable rights was introduced by Francis Hutcheson in his A System of Moral Philosophy (1755) based on the Reformation principle of the liberty of conscience. One could not in fact give up the capacity for private judgment (e.g., about religious questions) regardless of any external contracts or oaths to religious or secular authorities so that right is "unalienable." In discussions of social contract theory, "inalienable rights" were said to be those rights that could not be surrendered by citizens to the sovereign. Such rights were thought to be natural rights, independent of positive law. Natural rights date back at least to the Roman Empire, and were recognized during medieval times, but in this context are an element of the classical liberalism of the 18th and 19th centuries. Classical Liberal thinkers reasoned that each man is endowed with rights, of which the rights to life, liberty and property were thought to be fundamental. However, they reasoned that in the natural state only the strongest could benefit from their rights. Each individual forms an implicit social contract, ceding his or her rights to the authority to protect his or her right from being abused. For this reason, almost all classical liberal thinkers, for example, accepted the death penalty and incarceration as necessary elements of government.

"Jefferson took his division of rights into alienable and unalienable from Hutcheson, who made the distinction popular and important."[4] In the The 1776 United States Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson famously condensed this to:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights. . ." This was changed to unalienable by John Adams at the time of printing the Declaration.

In the nineteenth century, the movement to abolish slavery seized this passage as a statement of constitutional principle, although the U.S. constitution recognized and protected slavery. As a lawyer, future Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase argued before the Supreme Court in the case of John Van Zandt, who had been charged with violating the Fugitive Slave Act, that:

"The law of the Creator, which invests every human being with an inalienable title to freedom, cannot be repealed by any interior law which asserts that man is property."

Many scholars now argue that the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, enacted after the Civil War and the abolition of slavery, wrote the principles of equality and natural rights into the Constitution for the first time. However, it can also been argued that the axiom of inalienable rights was written into the Bill of Rights as the Ninth Amendment rights “retained by the people”.

Obviously, you are WRONG.

If you favor locking away criminals then you are just as guilty of violating their (in your view) unalienable rights as those who favor the death penalty because the right to be free is as unalienable as the right to live.

LMAO.

There is a difference between natural rights, personal rights and civil rights. From wiki:

Liberty

Liberty is divided into four types : natural, personal, civil and political. The first two are inalienable, the latter two are government granted. Natural liberty is absolute freedom, limited only by the laws of nature. It is exercised upon one's private property or upon unclaimed property (anywhere else would be a trespass). Personal liberty is the right of locomotion, the freedom to travel upon public roads and waterways; limited only by the requirement to not infringe another's right to travel. Civil liberty is the permission from government to do that which would otherwise be a trespass, a tort or not allowed by law. A license to practice medicine is an example of a civil liberty (inflict injury without criminal liability). Political liberty is the permission to vote and hold office. In countries with socialist / communist governments that abolish private property rights, natural and personal liberty do not exist. Permission (license) is required for most activities and actions.

So, what type of right do you suppose is the state witholding from a convict as punishment for his crime, hmmm?
 
Nonsense.

The social contract is the perfect union of the body politic and its individual members. Self-defense cannot be invoked against one's self.

You are groping for logic when it is ostensibly ABSENT in your argument.

There are two sides to every contract. Members of a socety, as opposed to a natural person, yield thier right to be free from agression to the authority so that the authority may protect that right vs the natural individual standing against all aggressors personally with no expectation for aid from outside sources. The agressor (murderer) has violated the contract, is no longer a party to the social contract and is therefore subject to defensive action on the part of the society

There is a failure of logic here, but it is clearly on your part.

You're reason in the abortion thread, as I recall, was the legal dictionary's definition of person.

My reason was dependent on the political theory of the natural rights of man -- a theory that has been concieved long before the american constitution.

We are, in fact, operating under the American Constitution rather than the theories you argued which is precisely why your argument failed. We operate under a set of defined rules and if you want to change them, then there are methods. Simply arguing theory is pointless in the presence of structured institutions.
 
Let me refresh your memory of highschool civics, if I may be permitted:

So you have proved that you can google up a subject and cut and paste. You have also proved that you don't really understand what you brought here. If you violate the social contract, you are no longer protected by it.
 
There are two sides to every contract. Members of a socety, as opposed to a natural person, yield thier right to be free from agression to the authority so that the authority may protect that right vs the natural individual standing against all aggressors personally with no expectation for aid from outside sources. The agressor (murderer) has violated the contract, is no longer a party to the social contract and is therefore subject to defensive action on the part of the society

There is a failure of logic here, but it is clearly on your part.

You obviously are ignorant of the subject you are pretending to argue.

I have already demonstrated that killing your attacker IS NOT ALWAYS A VALID SELF-DEFENSE.

How in heaven's name can you justify SELF-DEFENSE BY CAPITAL PUNISHMENT when the convict is already incarcerated, eh?

We are, in fact, operating under the American Constitution rather than the theories you argued which is precisely why your argument failed. We operate under a set of defined rules and if you want to change them, then there are methods. Simply arguing theory is pointless in the presence of structured institutions.
LOL

In the first paragraph, you argue on the basis of locke's social contract. On the next, you completely dismiss it.

Is it to much to ask for some logical consistency in your argument, hmmm?

The fact is, almost all legal precedents in the us borrows its validity fromTHE NATURAL RIGHTS OF MAN, as expounded in locke's political philosophy. When LOGICALLY AND CONSISTENTLY APPLIED, the reasons against abortion are fundamentally the same with the reasons against capital punishment -- an inalienable right to live, hence INVIOLATE.

So, you might as well put your legal dictionary away, since it wouldn't help you at all in this debate.
 
So you have proved that you can google up a subject and cut and paste. You have also proved that you don't really understand what you brought here. If you violate the social contract, you are no longer protected by it.

As expected. You have no intelligent retort against such overwhelming facts and logic.

Tell me -- what does you legal dictionary say about self-defense, eh?

Is the word synonymous to an execution such that one is free to interchange their meanings, hmmm?
 
You obviously are ignorant of the subject you are pretending to argue.

Easy to say, an entirely different matter to prove.

I have already demonstrated that killing your attacker IS NOT ALWAYS A VALID SELF-DEFENSE.

Which is why the death penalty is only applicable for certain crimes.

How in heaven's name can you justify SELF-DEFENSE BY CAPITAL PUNISHMENT when the convict is already incarcerated, eh?

How many people do you suppose have killed, been jailed and released only to kill again or escaped from prison to kill again?

In the first paragraph, you argue on the basis of locke's social contract. On the next, you completely dismiss it.

One topic is capital punishment, the other topic abortion. Different topics, different arguments.


The fact is, almost all legal precedents in the us borrows its validity fromTHE NATURAL RIGHTS OF MAN, as expounded in locke's political philosophy. When LOGICALLY AND CONSISTENTLY APPLIED, the reasons against abortion are fundamentally the same with the reasons against capital punishment -- an inalienable right to live, hence INVIOLATE.

Sorry, few classical liberals believe that one has the right to kill and expect to continue living. Perhaps some misguided libertarians. Does that describe you?


So, you might as well put your legal dictionary away, since it wouldn't help you at all in this debate.

I have already won this debate. Abstract theory is pointless in the face of actual legal archetecture.
 
As expected. You have no intelligent retort against such overwhelming facts and logic.

Facts? Which "facts" are you talking about? Your entire argument is rooted in theory and your logic assumes theory is fact.
 
Easy to say, an entirely different matter to prove.

Oh, I've proven it alright. When you cannot prove personhood beyond what a legal dictionary says indicates a general ignorance quite clearly, thank you.

Which is why the death penalty is only applicable for certain crimes.

How many people do you suppose have killed, been jailed and released only to kill again or escaped from prison to kill again?

Nonsense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_self-defense

In most jurisdictions, when the defense succeeds, it operates as a complete justification when the degree of violence used is comparable or proportionate to the threat faced, so deadly force would only be excused in situations of "extreme" danger. The defense would fail if a defendant deliberately killed a petty thief who did not appear to be a physical threat. Likewise, when an assailant ceases to be a threat (say, being tackled and restrained), the defense will fail if the defending party presses on to attack. A somewhat less obvious application of this rule is that admitting the use of deadly force in an attempt to disable rather than kill the assailant can be construed as evidence that the defendant wasn't yet in enough danger to justify lethal force in the first place.

So you see, it is quite clear that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE CAN CAPITAL PUNISHMENT BE CONSTRUED AS SELF-DEFENSE.

Capice?

One topic is capital punishment, the other topic abortion. Different topics, different arguments.

Different topics - same argument -- an individual's right to live as inseperable from his own person.

Sorry, few classical liberals believe that one has the right to kill and expect to continue living. Perhaps some misguided libertarians. Does that describe you?

You mean classical liberals like you believe there is a right to kill to begin with? No wonder you are thoroughly befuddled!

Oh, and you are describing describing ancient law, the code of hammurabi, for one. Nothing in modern jurisprudence would indicate that it is a tool for revenge.

I have already won this debate. Abstract theory is pointless in the face of actual legal archetecture.

LOL.

You are looking at the paint job while I am expounding its foundation.

Legal dictionary, indeed!
 
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