Dems: highest 2% of earners,who already pay 50% of all incm taxes, must pay even more

[Openmind]

Re: Dems: highest 2% of earners,who already pay 50% of all incm taxes, must pay even

Federal tax isn't the only tax on the payroll.
You should always include the FICA tax when making comparisons.

Income: $300,000
Income tax liability: $83,897
% of income: 27.97%
Medicare portion of FICA will be $4,350.00
Social Security portion of FICA will be $6,621.60
Total payroll tax liability: $94,868
% of income: 31.6%


Income: $40,000
Income tax liability: $6,125
% of income: 15.31%
Medicare portion of FICA will be $580.00
Social Security portion of FICA will be $2,480.00
Total payroll tax liability: $9,185
% of income: 23%

Source: http://www.calculatorpro.com/fica-tax-calculator/

That calculation is somewhat less progressive.

And you took the $300,000 as being NET income, right? After you deduct your "dependents," and your "expenses" and your "interest on mortgage" and your "business expense" and your "home office" etc. . .. . .you only really pay tax on about $180,000 if you really make $300,000 gross!

It is true also for the guy making $40,000. . .but his "interest of mortgage deduction" is probably non-existent, because he probably can't afford to purchase a home, and his business expenses are probably nul, so HIS deductions are MUCH lower than the other guy. . .
As I said before, this was an exemple. . .never pretended to be a nit picking accurate numbers!

 

[Dr.Who]

Re: Dems: highest 2% of earners,who already pay 50% of all incm taxes, must pay even

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=2908

Top 1 Percent of Americans Reaped Two-Thirds of Income Gains in Last Economic Expansion
Income Concentration in 2007 Was at Highest Level Since 1928, New Analysis Shows

Why does it matter that they earned more of the income gains? As long as they earned it honestly then what difference does it make how much they make?

And if they did earn it dishonestly then isn't the solution to stop the dishonesty rather than to allow it to continue but to take a cut of the booty?

Suppose a crook, a minister, a fool, and a wise man sell tomatoes on the side of the road.

The crook makes a lot of money by cheating people, the minister makes a lot of money despite being generous (maybe even because he is generous and people like to do business with him) the wise man makes a lot of money honestly, and the fool looses money.

What should the gov response be? Certainly the crook should be stopped. The minister and the wise man should be left untouched. And the fool should go into another line of work for which he is better suited.

 

[Dr.Who]

Re: Dems: highest 2% of earners,who already pay 50% of all incm taxes, must pay even

Over the past 30 years the middle class has not had a pay raise. The wealthy have had humongous pay raises.

Since the wealthy reaped the benefits, why not expect them to pay the costs? Where is the unfairness in that?

A tax system based on percentages takes more from those who earn more but uses the same rules equally to tax all. That would be fair and the wealthy would pay more, but the same percent.

Suppose two men work 40 hours per week and take home the same pay for the same job. Then one of them decides he wants more so he gets a second part time job and works an additional 20 hours. It is fair to tax both of them the same percentage of their wages. It is not fair to tax the harder worker a larger percent because he made a more industrious choice.

 

[Dr.Who]

Re: Dems: highest 2% of earners,who already pay 50% of all incm taxes, must pay even

Why returning to insults?

Isn't enough enough?

POS makes an excellent argument. And the fact that 2% of people making about 80% of all money doesn't tell me that asking them to pay more tax is unfair!

How much money do those 2top % take home after tax?

How much does the average middle class person take home after tax?

This is enough to convince me that the taxation system is indeed not fair. . .it is to lenient towards the very wealthy.

The tax bite is larger for the rich guy so it is indeed unfair. The reason he brings home more in the end is that he earned more to begin with.

There are lots of reasons that rich people earn more. The most important reasons are education and experience - both of which are the result of being older which is the trait that is true of more rich people than any other trait. Many young people will be the rich people in time.

Other factors are working harder, being lucky, and having natural talent. None of these should be reasons to tax a person more.

Another factor is dishonestly. But dishonest people should not be taxed more they should be arrested.

 

[ThisTooShallPass]

Re: Dems: highest 2% of earners,who already pay 50% of all incm taxes, must pay even

So government employees ought to pay higher taxes simply because they work for the government?

I wouldn't say government employees exclusively (much less all of them), but I'm certainly not sympathetic to the cries of those whose salaries are paid for by taxpayers that they're paying too much in taxes.

 

[Openmind]

Re: Dems: highest 2% of earners,who already pay 50% of all incm taxes, must pay even

A tax system based on percentages takes more from those who earn more but uses the same rules equally to tax all. That would be fair and the wealthy would pay more, but the same percent.

Suppose two men work 40 hours per week and take home the same pay for the same job. Then one of them decides he wants more so he gets a second part time job and works an additional 20 hours. It is fair to tax both of them the same percentage of their wages. It is not fair to tax the harder worker a larger percent because he made a more industrious choice.

Well, I would commend the guy who is taking a second job. . .except that he may be taking the job that someone else might have needed to feed his family.

So. . .I personally think that it is a lot more beneficial for a family, for a society, to not be so "driven" to work multiple jobs or work 70 hours a week, but to have work for more people, less unemployment, which benefits a LOT more people in society!

It also benefit society when parents are more present for their kids, more relax due to more free time.

It's not so much about "life standing," but "life quality."

But then again, It's a personal opinion only, and I am probably biased because of having experienced the "life quality" in European countries where it's not so much about "what you own," but "what you can do" with your money. . .like long vacations, 32 hours work week, and long lunches!

 

[Dr.Who]

Re: Dems: highest 2% of earners,who already pay 50% of all incm taxes, must pay even

It is OK with you for the powerful to use their power to step on the neck of the middle class and force the middle class to work for bread crusts while the wealthy steals the wealth created by others?

"Might Makes Right", and "If they don't catch you, its not wrong" ethics of a few of today's very wealthy is in some way OK in your book?

A basic rule of law is that the guilty should be tried then convicted while the innocent should not be.

Taxing ALL the rich because there are people who do what you describe above would punish the innocent along with the guilty while also ignoring that some who are not rich do similar things.

We need to tax all people the same and convict all wrongdoers as much as we can while leaving honest people alone as much as we can.

The issue should never be about rich and poor but about honest and dishonest. Most of the rich were once poor but worked hard honestly to get rich over time. Most of the poor are kids in college who will have their turn. But for the few who were born rich because daddy gave them money who are we to tell daddy that he can't give money to his kids? And for those who are perennially poor - well the current system has not eliminated poverty any better than the old system which at least respected the constitutional principle that one's property belonged to one.

 

[Dr.Who]

Re: Dems: highest 2% of earners,who already pay 50% of all incm taxes, must pay even

Where in my reply did I scream about the looters and their money? All anyone is asking is that they pay a fair share to the country that provided their great good fortunes.

Why is that unreasonable?

(For some reason that is totally mysterious to me, there are people who believe the rich are rich totally on their own befuddles me. Do you believe these very rich people would be very rich if they were born and raised in Somalia? Or Mexico. Or Qatar. Or Finland?

This country is supposed to give everyone the same opportunity. If it does not then change that without taxing one person more than another. If it does then the rich have made more of that opportunity than another. Me and Michael Jordan both had the same opportunity to be paid basketball players but he just made more of his opportunity than I did or even could. It is not his fault he is a better basketball player and certainly he must have practiced thousands of hours while I watched tv.

So do you believe that the rich were just given the same opportunities or do you think they were given better opportunities from the government? Then change that inequity and not the tax system

Do you think they were given actual money from the government? (you said that they were given their fortunes. I would like to see where they were given fortunes rather than opportunity and then together we can work against that) If they were given fortunes rather than opportunies then lets keep a tax system that taxes all on the same percent and stop gov from giving away fortunes.

 

[Openmind]

Re: Dems: highest 2% of earners,who already pay 50% of all incm taxes, must pay even

The tax bite is larger for the rich guy so it is indeed unfair. The reason he brings home more in the end is that he earned more to begin with.

There are lots of reasons that rich people earn more. The most important reasons are education and experience - both of which are the result of being older which is the trait that is true of more rich people than any other trait. Many young people will be the rich people in time.

Other factors are working harder, being lucky, and having natural talent. None of these should be reasons to tax a person more.

Another factor is dishonestly. But dishonest people should not be taxed more they should be arrested.

Do you realize that in the very top wealth (I believe the top 1%, but I could check), ONLY 19% of those in that income bracket's wealth comes from INCOME. . . the rest live off their dividends, their inheritances, their royalties, but never have a day's work!

The "working hard" point always gets to me! I have watched brick layer work. . .and I've watched the CEO of a large computer company work. . .I do not think that the CEO worked 500 times harder than the brick layer.

I have visited the offices (small one, only about 50 people) of Microsoft. . .
It consists in luxury offices including several broad screen TV's to watch anytime of the day, a shuffle board, a table bowling, a few dart boards, Video games area, a full bar, with free, at will beer on the tap, a fully loaded fridge. . .I'm sure I forgot a few things! AND, most people who have their office there . . .work from home!

Yep. . .hard work is the key of it all! If one doesn't make a bundle of money, it must be because they don't work as hard!!! (NOT!).

 

[Dr.Who]

Re: Dems: highest 2% of earners,who already pay 50% of all incm taxes, must pay even

ll of that presumes a free market. Do you believe there is anywhere near a free market for labor in the US?

This is an opinion, but so near as I can see there is a manipulated market in most things, including labor. The manipulators just destroyed the housing market, the fossil market, and a few years ago destroyed the Savings and Loans industry. The looters are preying on the middle class and the middle class has no protections, but the looters have bevies of highly paid lawyers, politicians, and PR & advertising forms.

To hear BP tell the story on TV, the oil spill was no big deal, right?

There is nothing free about enterprise in America today.

I do think that generally it is a free market. If and when not then the solution is to make the market more free not to punish the innocent along with the guilty. The solution is also not to punish the guilty within the tax code but to do it in the legal system.

 

[Openmind]

Re: Dems: highest 2% of earners,who already pay 50% of all incm taxes, must pay even

I do think that generally it is a free market. If and when not then the solution is to make the market more free not to punish the innocent along with the guilty. The solution is also not to punish the guilty within the tax code but to do it in the legal system.

Then, how do you explain that CEO who drove their company to the edge of bankcrupcy, who had to take a bailout from the government, still end up making more in bonus than 500 of their employees?

Do you think the American public would have voted to give them those bonus?
Do you think their own employees would have?

No. . .it is not "free market!" It is manipulated market. It is a market that is driven not by what is good for society, what is good for the workforce, is good for the company's top management. . .it is a manipulated market that says, Screw the public, screw the employees, show the TOP stock holders an increase in stock price, and you get paid astronomical salaries and bonuses, even if it means laying off thousands of people to get that increase in stock value!

 

[Dr.Who]

Re: Dems: highest 2% of earners,who already pay 50% of all incm taxes, must pay even

In addition, if you look at the VERY wealthy, most of their wealth doesn't come from "income" but from accumulated wealth. Most don't work at all, but reap the benefits from huge dividends, AND the extremely favorable tax shelters and tax codes that allow them to pay a MUCH smaller tax rate on investment income, and none on wealth.

Investing money in the markets and risking that it will be lost is work. If you like it better than whatever you do then go do it.

The tax rate for investments is better than the tax rates for eared income. maybe we should change that. But creating an ever more progressive tax code does not change that does it? And if we did change it then just about every 401k in this country would stop being worth having. Is that what you want since the majority of the money in those 401k's is owned by regular guys?

Tax shelters should be eliminated. Who made the tax code? Congress.

 

[Dr.Who]

Re: Dems: highest 2% of earners,who already pay 50% of all incm taxes, must pay even

In fact, although I am far from being in the top 1% of wealth, I am certainly in the top 5% of wealth, and still I believe the taxation is unfair. And, I am not the only one. Buffett, Gates, and many others who ARE in the top 1/10 of 1% of wealth feel exactly the same way.

Is there something stopping you from paying your fair share? You can go on the gov website and pay more. Lets assume that you are paying more than the gov requires of you. Now you just need to convince some of the other 5 percenters to do the same. If youR logic is sound you will not have trouble.

 

[Openmind]

Re: Dems: highest 2% of earners,who already pay 50% of all incm taxes, must pay even

Is there something stopping you from paying your fair share? You can go on the gov website and pay more. Lets assume that you are paying more than the gov requires of you. Now you just need to convince some of the other 5 percenters to do the same. If youR logic is sound you will not have trouble.

No, that's the point.

And it isn't even the top 5%, it is the top 2%!

Charity is wonderful. . .but it has NEVER been enough to take care of the poor, the old, the disabled, the roads, the schools for all.

One good place to get more revenues would be to have EVERY religious institution pay taxes, and just take deductions ONLY in what is properly demonstrated to go 100% to charities. People will ALWAYS have a good excuse why not to give that 1 or 2% extra to charity. In fact, the middle class and lower middle class is often more generous (proportionaly) than the very wealthy, who are usually very careful to calculate just how much "charity" they can deduct from their taxes!

Big corporations gets much "corporate welfare" and still uses every loop holes on the books (and some additional ones!). This is a kind of entitlements that could be cut immediately.

The tax rates should go back up to the Clinton era for ALL (yes, even the lower income), BUT somme loopholes that advantage the wealthiest a lot more than the poor should be closed (i.e., we could keep the mortgage interest deduction. . .up to the level of "jumbo mortgage." Anything above the level of "jumbo mortgage - - I believe about $400,000 mortgage these days, but it varies per area - - should NOT be tax deductible).

And, BONUSES should be taxed higher, much higher if they are above 3X the salary.

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: Dems: highest 2% of earners,who already pay 50% of all incm taxes, must pay even

No, that's the point.

Dr.Who asks a good question and you have not answered it.

What is stopping you from paying your "fair" share of taxes?

If you want to pay higher taxes, then pay higher taxes, nobody is stopping you.