Ending Poverty in America

[Plainspeaker]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

You know what makes me laugh?

All these impoverished republicans in the deep south who don't have two dimes to rub together shouting about about how sharing the wealth around is bad.

I mean, how stupid (indoctrinated) do you have to be to protest against receiving more money and voting for the few rich people to keep it all and perpeptuate the system?

 

[BigRob]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

You know what makes me laugh?

All these impoverished republicans in the deep south who don't have two dimes to rub together shouting about about how sharing the wealth around is bad.

Care to back this up with fact? In case you missed it there are millions of impoverished democrats in the South, as well as impoverished people all over the country. Of course in you take a swipe at the South instead, and then call them "stupid."

I mean, how stupid (indoctrinated) do you have to be to protest against receiving more money and voting for the few rich people to keep it all and perpeptuate the system?

Maybe you have given up all your pride and just expect money from the government, but thankfully these "stupid" people in the South have yet to do so.

Why do you feel so entitled to other people's money? I want to laugh at that, but it is so pathetic I just can't.

 

[Plainspeaker]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

The biggest sinlge factor determining how wealthy you will be is where and to who you are born.

You have no choice in this.

And before you go on about equal opportunity consider that a child born to an AIDS mother in Africa is hardly going to have the same opportunity as say the children of Bill Gates.

All that wealth re-distribution seeks to do is do something to assist those who through no fault of their own got born to the disadvantaged parents.

The world is better for everybody including the rich if everyone is given a propper chance and an investment in society.

If you don't think that it is wrong that a few have unspendable wealth whilst others starve you are devoid of human compassion.

Are you a christian by any chance?

 

[BigRob]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

The biggest sinlge factor determining how wealthy you will be is where and to who you are born.

You have no choice in this.

And before you go on about equal opportunity consider that a child born to an AIDS mother in Africa is hardly going to have the same opportunity as say the children of Bill Gates.

Bill Gates is a college drop-out.

Numerous people are successful coming out of Africa. If you are born and tell yourself you cannot succeed then you never will. There are tons of examples of people overcoming the worst adversity to "hit it big." There are also a lot of examples of "rich kids" amounting to nothing. It is all in your work ethic, especially in this country.

All that wealth re-distribution seeks to do is do something to assist those who through no fault of their own got born to the disadvantaged parents.

The world is better for everybody including the rich if everyone is given a propper chance and an investment in society.

I have no problem giving money to charities or poor people. I do have a problem when the government tells me that I have no choice in the matter.

If you don't think that it is wrong that a few have unspendable wealth whilst others starve you are devoid of human compassion.

Are you a christian by any chance?

Why on Earth would I think it is wrong to keep what you earned? And that does not relate to my personal feelings towards poverty. I am all for helping people, but I am not for stealing from a "rich" person to do so.

Like I said, I am all for giving to charities, I give a ton, but I want to be the one to decide what to do with my money, not the government.

 

[Plainspeaker]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Your argument is weak.

There is the odd case of the rich kid who did bad and the poor kid who did good.

But most poor people stay poor through generations and most rich people stay rich.

The rich built the system and it plays to them. They make the rules.

You know this is true and it is to your immense discredit that you pretend you don't.

Charities cannot solve this problem.

It requires governments to intervene.

That is why most enlightened governments help the poor with healthcare and unemployment benefit.

And because you won the birth lottery by being born in the US you should feel sufficient humanity to those born in less fortunate circumstances to help them.

I really don't understand why such an idea makes the likes of you so mad?

 

[BigRob]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

There is the odd case of the rich kid who did bad and the poor kid who did good.

But most poor people stay poor through generations and most rich people stay rich.

Many people stay poor through their own doing. Let me give you a personal example.

8 years or so ago I was in New York with my uncle. A homeless man approached us and asked for money. My uncle (who runs a business in New York) offered the man a job on the spot. Pay was around $40,000 starting out. The man though for about 5 seconds before saying "No thanks."

The rich built the system and it plays to them. They make the rules.

I will not argue that rich people have more influence in the system, but the idea that no poor person can ever succeed is bogus.

You know this is true and it is to your immense discredit that you pretend you don't.

Charities cannot solve this problem.

It requires governments to intervene.

Why a government is basically just a big charity.

That is why most enlightened governments help the poor with healthcare and unemployment benefit.

We already do this.

And because you won the birth lottery by being born in the US you should feel sufficient humanity to those born in less fortunate circumstances to help them.

Who said I feel no humanity? I give tons of money to charities. That does not mean that I have to support a government take over of my life to have "humanity."

 

[Dr.Who]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

No.

Because poverty is an unnecessary misery and pain-causing evil that destroys lives, and poverty is caused by the present system.

There are many other problems that are also intrinsic to and thus caused by the present system, and thus the only solutions will be found in a new system.

Here is a link that presents the case for system replacement:The Foundational Problem

I did read some of the article you posted and I thank you for linking to it. In the first few paragraphs I noticed that the author made several leaps of logic and creates the the foundation for his whole thesis without supporting any of the foundational statements.

I reject the notion that a monetary system defines our worth merely by its existence. I value all humans because they are made in the image of God and the size of their bank account does not make them more or less valuable. Millions agree with me and just because the author does not agree does not make him right.

I also reject the idea that money creates poverty. Even if there we no such thing as money there would be people who did no have enough of what they need - they would be in poverty.

I reject that the money system is at the bottom of all our problems. Our own evil is the cause of many and most of our problems. Our disconnect with God is more foundational as a cause of problems and is really the cause of all of them. Just my opinion.

etc.

I do respect that the author seems sincere and did a lot of work to put the article together.

Thanks again for the post chip. If you want to discuss specific aspects of the article a new thread would be good and I would join you there.

 

[Dr.Who]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Your argument is weak.

There is the odd case of the rich kid who did bad and the poor kid who did good.

But most poor people stay poor through generations and most rich people stay rich.

The rich built the system and it plays to them. They make the rules.

You know this is true and it is to your immense discredit that you pretend you don't.

Charities cannot solve this problem.

It requires governments to intervene.

That is why most enlightened governments help the poor with healthcare and unemployment benefit.

And because you won the birth lottery by being born in the US you should feel sufficient humanity to those born in less fortunate circumstances to help them.

I really don't understand why such an idea makes the likes of you so mad?

You might want to do a fact check on a few of those statements.

And two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Listing of problem symptoms is a rational behavior.

I don't find lying, or overstating, the flaws inherent in the system to be rational but intentionally dishonest and antagonistic.

Your anecdotal reference of extraordinary ability to hit a golf ball or act in a movie or provide corporate direction remains contextually irrelevant.

Yes, of course... Only your use of overstated glittering generalities are of any relevance.

Only by stepping outside of the system that controls your thoughts will you likely be able to see the Money System's intrinsic irrationality and inhumanness, the threat it poses to humanity, and come to correctly see why it needs to be replaced.

Irrational, inhumane and a threat to humanity would well describe what you refer to as "heaven on earth".

Poverty is needless and not required in a healthy socioeconomic system.

So in your Utopian system.... the lazy lout will be just as well off as the most intelligent and industrious of individuals?

Who are you to say that those who live in constant justified fear of not being able to obtain their life-sustaining basic needs are not suffering?!

If anyone suffers in America, its by their own volition and not by the machinations of a society looking to oppress them.

That's because construction of the new system to replace the present system has not, to my knowledge, been completed, and thus it does not have a name.

The "System" you describe sounds just like Marx's "Utopian Socialism" whereby the state, all forms of capitol and the classes are no longer necessary and, as he puts it, die out.

Under his theory, each individual chooses his own industry and skillset and all products are created and shared free of charge... for nothing more than ones love of his own industry and the advancement of humanity as a whole.

Compared to living in the hell of the present system, the new system will indeed seem like heaven on earth.

And you accuse me of blind idealism...

Heaven is often described as something similar to a socialist utopia, but the most familiar utopian socialist society would be that of the United Federation of Planets in the popular television series Star Trek, particularly as depicted in Star Trek: The Next Generation. There is no money, no want, no poverty, no crime, no disease or ignorance in human society; virtually everyone works for the advancement of all humanity as well as the rest of the Federation. The advent and use of the replicator helped in Earth's transformation to a socialist utopia due to its ability to produce mass quantities of any goods at little cost.

Get busy inventing the "Replicator" and, once you've complete it, you can see your Utopian Socialist society come to fruition, until then, its nothing more than a pipe dream...

 

[Chip]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Even if there we no such thing as money there would be people who did no have enough of what they need - they would be in poverty.

Why?

I suppose if you believe that scarcity is an unsolvable reality, then maybe it would make sense.

Or if you think it's wrong to share equally among all, as Jesus divided the bread and fishes, then, okay, I can understand where you're coming from.

But what if scarcity is really a myth?

And what if that myth is perpetrated by the system itself?

And what if we buy into that myth merely to gain favor with the system so that it won't impoverish us?

Ultimately, any system, even a healthy modern one, is indeed only as good as those who work it.

And, true, we may have to face one of the harshest realities our speicies may ever have to face: that we've over-populated the planet and that size-reduction via smaller families is required for our speicies itself to continue much longer.

But none of this negates the reality that we outgrew our present socioeconomic system thousands of years ago, and like a necktie that won't give as we grow, it's choking us to death.

No matter what given challenges we must face, they can all be faced and dealt with better via a more modern system of socioeconomics that will allow us all to breathe.

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Or if you think it's wrong to share equally among all, as Jesus divided the bread and fishes, then, okay, I can understand where you're coming from.

Unless that "sharing" is voluntary, and one can opt in or out of it, then it is oppressive.

Jesus? Something tells me you invoke his name without knowing anything about Jesus, in hopes of using it to sway Christians into believing in your fairytales.

Jesus never argued that "sharing" should be compulsory for all people and forced upon all people by the state... He also said it was better to teach a man to fish than to simply give him one.

Now if you believe in fairytales, magic and the supernatural... I can see where you're coming from.

But what if scarcity is really a myth?

And what if that myth is perpetrated by the system itself?

And what if we buy into that myth merely to gain favor with the system so that it won't impoverish us?.

I deal with reality and facts, not speculation and conjecture. If you have proof that scarcity is a myth, then provide it, if you do not have such proof, then stick to the realities you can proove to exist.

Ultimately, any system, even a healthy modern one, is indeed only as good as those who work it.

Which is why our founder felt the power should rest more in the hands of the people than the government and its beauracracies.

And, true, we may have to face one of the harshest realities our speicies may ever have to face: that we've over-populated the planet and that size-reduction via smaller families is required for our speicies itself to continue much longer.

Overpopulation is a myth... We are overcentralized in our living conditions, packed to live in too small an area with too many others, if we simply spread out... there would be plenty of room for all.

But none of this negates the reality that we outgrew our present socioeconomic system thousands of years ago, and like a necktie that won't give as we grow, it's choking us to death.

No matter what given challenges we must face, they can all be faced and dealt with better via a more modern system of socioeconomics that will allow us all to breathe.

Fallacies galore in this last one... Come back to reality, back up your assertions with facts and please.... lay off the analogies , metaphors and similies. I'd prefer to have a discussion based on reality than wishful thinking.

 

[Unite Our Nation]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

GenSen,

Do you have any idea how most people earn in the higher tax brackets?

It is mostly on the backs of folks who invest every dime they have to start a small business and then live very frugally for years in order to get that business off the ground. If what you purpose were implemented, NO ONE would be able to launch a new business...or even keep the other business going.

That would mean mass unemployment such as we have never seen!

Have you taken any econ classes? Not trying to insult, but what you wrote is impossible.

Can you show me financially how your plan could work?

 

[Unite Our Nation]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Interesting GenSen, you said this:

"Which is why our founder felt the power should rest more in the hands of the people than the government and its beauracracies."

If you are talking about our Founding Fathers, then my question to you is, have you listened to the interview by Obama where he DOES NOT AGREE with our Founding Fathers.

 

[Dr.Who]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Originally Posted by Dr.Who
Even if there we no such thing as money there would be people who did no have enough of what they need - they would be in poverty.

Why?

I suppose if you believe that scarcity is an unsolvable reality, then maybe it would make sense.

There was a time in the past before any monetary systems existed and scarcity was a reality back then. Monetary systems are a good way to deal with scarcity and the evil of human nature. To quote someone: "life was nasty brutish and short."

If you want to argue that some day scarcity and the evil of human nature will be gone then by all means we can do away with monetary systems - they would be obsolete anyway.

But until then, as long as we do have scarcity and the evil of human nature doing away with monetary systems first is completely impractical. Doing away with monetary systems now would ensure that the most brutish of all would take from those who are about to have short lives.

 

[Mr. Carpenter]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Interesting GenSen, you said this:

"Which is why our founder felt the power should rest more in the hands of the people than the government and its beauracracies."

If you are talking about our Founding Fathers, then my question to you is, have you listened to the interview by Obama where he DOES NOT AGREE with our Founding Fathers.

Almost everything that Obama says directly contradicts the Founding Fathers!