Gays from One Man's Christian Perspective

[Dr.Who]

We have seen some pretty bizarre ideas regarding homosexuality both in the past and in the present on this forum.

Sometimes we see better ideas though they are not always understood well.

Here is an article that is better than most. I find that I can agree somehwere between 80 and 98% with the author. It is hard to say since it is a pretty deep subject and some of the finer points get pretty nuanced (especially if you read the comments attached to the original article at its source). I find that it opens the door to some interesting questions too.

It is a part of a larger series and here it is:

"I recently began a series of blog posts on Christianity and homosexuality, and then left off for a while. The truth is that I’ve been dreading writing the next installment — this one — in the series. Absolutely dreading it. Why? Many of my friends, colleagues and former students are homosexual. I respect them, admire them, like them, and love them. They are good people. And while many of them would object to other parts of the series so far, this is the part that will bother them the most. It pains me to think of paining them.

Yet the question in this case is not whether I dislike homosexuals. (I do not.) The question is whether homosexuality, in my view of things, is wrong. My responsibility is to speak the truth as well as I can understand it. Since I am far from infallible, since I am a limited creature and not immune to any number of wrong or irrational influences, and since I respect the opinions of many who have come to different conclusions on this question, I have to speak with humility. Yet I do have to speak, in part because of the social importance of the subject, in part because I believe the truth matters for individuals and their own welfare, and in part because I began this series and many people have asked me to continue. They wonder, for instance, how to speak with their gay friend or their lesbian sister, in view of their commitment to Christian teachings. So let me try not only to give an answer, but to model a way of delivering that answer.

Is homosexuality wrong? The answer is NO — and YES.

In other words, it’s time again for some finer distinctions. In the question “Is homosexuality wrong?”, it’s imperative to define what we mean by “homosexuality” and by “wrong.” (Fan though I am of Clintonian distinctions, I’ll assume we know what “is” means here.) I’m going to use a similar but slightly different set of distinctions here than the one I used when we were asking whether homosexuality is voluntary. It is:

1. Homosexual desire: a single, discrete sexual desire for a person of the same sex.
2. Homosexual inclination: an enduring predilection toward homosexual desires.
3. Homosexual behavior: acting on a homosexual desire (this would be a single homosexual act) or acting regularly on homosexual inclinations (entering into homosexual relationships, whether serial or monogamous).
4. Homosexual marriage: committing before God to a lifelong sexual, practical and spiritual covenant with one other person.


What, then, do we mean by wrong? It’s important to distinguish what is unintended — meaning that this is not what God intended for creation from the start — from what is morally wrong or against God’s will now. There may be some things which God did not intend, but which are morally justified in a fallen world under certain conditions. For instance, I do not believe that God intended for divorce; divorce is not ideal in an ultimate sense; in a fallen world, however, and under certain conditions, divorce may be the right thing to do. And let me be perfectly clear that whether something is wrong, and whether it is or ought to be illegal, are related but different questions. I am leaving the state out of (4), for instance, because the question here is not legality but morality. I can justify this at greater length in the comments, if someone has a challenge.

 

[Dr.Who]

HOMOSEXUAL DESIRE: First comes the NO. It is not wrong to have a homosexual desire. Many people, even people who live their entire lives happily as married heterosexuals, have experienced, once upon a time, a spark of attraction for a person of the same sex. Since conservative Christians who care enough to write about homosexuality are often accused of fighting their own repressed urges, I have to say, in all honesty, that I have never experienced such a desire myself. When I look at other men, I feel no sense of sexual attraction, in the same way that some gay friends (they tell me) cannot imagine being attracted to someone of the opposite sex.

But I do not judge those who do feel such an attraction. If I am right in what I’ve written in this series thus far, people who feel homosexual attractions probably do so because of a complicated interaction between genetic inheritance, perhaps the birth environment, and certainly their environment in early life. You cannot be held morally accountable for these things. Whether or not they will experience same-sex desires is probably, at least in most cases, determined before they have become conscious of themselves as free and sexual creatures. It is not literally true, but is experientially true, that they were “born this way,” because they cannot remember ever feeling otherwise.

HOMOSEXUAL INCLINATION: Neither — for the same reasons — do I believe it’s wrong to experience an enduring proclivity toward same-sex desires. I know some men who very much wish they did not experience these desires, but the desires are there and they cannot simply wish them away.

To be clear, I do not believe that homosexual desires or homosexual inclinations were intended by God from the beginning. Here is where I am going to begin (if I have not already) to upset my gay friends. So please understand: This is a question of what I feel bound to believe according to the authorities in my life. I believe there is a Creator; in fact, I think it’s fairly obvious. I also believe — though this is less obvious — that this Creator communicated his love and his grace, but also his will and his Truth, in Jesus Christ and through the books now gathered together in the Christian scriptures. I spent many years studying the reasons why people reject these beliefs, but I feel that I have good reasons for them. The consequence is that I am bound to submit my understanding of true and false, right and wrong, to the Christian scriptures. Are they tough to interpret? Of course. But I do my best, and in many cases the proper interpretation is easily discerned.

I won’t go into the reasons now — I’ll save that for another part of this series — but I have come to believe that the scriptures depict sexual desire as something that men and women were intended to have for one another. In their difference, in their creative complementarity, in their companionship, and in their capacity (in general) to produce life, I believe that men and women were intended to unite and become one flesh. While I do not believe it is wrong to experience a homosexual inclination, neither do I believe that it’s what God intended.

 

[Dr.Who]

HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOR: Here comes the YES. Behavior is not merely to experience a desire or inclination, but to act upon it. We are not always free to choose our desires or inclinations, but we are generally free in — and morally accountable for — our actions. This is not to say we are completely uninfluenced by external factors, or internal factors over which we have no control; but it is to say that we have some remainder of free agency, an ability to do otherwise than our desires and inclinations would lead us to do. So, I do not blame an alcoholic for wanting a drink, and I don’t blame a teenager for wanting to have sex with his girlfriend, any more than I blame a starving person for wanting to eat. But we are morally accountable for what we do with our desires. Do we act upon them at all? Do we direct them rightly? And if we find our desires are misdirected, or out of control, or leading us to harm ourselves or others, do we take the initiative to restrain or redirect or even refuse to satisfy those desires? So just as we’re responsible for how we act upon our desires, we are also responsible for the extent to which we are able to cultivate our desires over time. If it’s wrong to act upon a same-sex desire, then a person ought, if possible, to seek to diminish those desires and redirect them (cultivating his desires through a thousand minute decisions) over time. If I sin consistently by looking at other women, then I should not act upon those desires, and I should seek over time to diminish and/or re-train those desires.

I hasten to add: while I believe it is a sin to act upon homosexual desires, I also believe that I sin in a thousand-and-one ways every day. I do not believe that my gay friends are worse sinners than I am. In fact, in a very real sense, that sort of comparison is meaningless. St. Paul refers to himself as “the chief of sinners,” and the chief of sinners is always me myself. The longer you spend striving to live out the will of God (whether out of legalism or out of gratitude), the more you understand just how sinful you are. I’ve never been unfaithful to my wife, but I have many times fallen short in my thoughts and deeds. So I have no interest in judging other people. But I do have an interest in upholding the Truth.

I also hasten to add: I do not believe that homosexual sin cuts a person off from fellowship with God. I was good friends with a dormmate my freshman year, and she “came out” in her sophomore year. We met again in our senior year, and she told a heartbreaking story of how her Bible-belt church essentially told her that she could have no relationship with God until she stopped acting upon her desires. This is insensitive, counter-productive, and theological nonsense. We are always sinners — all of us, always, even when we are not counted as such in the grace of God — and we are often confused on what is right and wrong. Those who have gay friends or relatives wrestling with their sexual and religious identities should not require them to stop sinning sexually before they can turn to God, but should encourage them to spend even more time with God everyday. If we are right that gay behavior is against God’s will, then we should encourage our gay brothers and sisters to keep praying, keep worshipping, and keep listening — and we should trust that God will convince them in due time. He is the author and perfecter of their faith — not us.

It is, ultimately, not my job to convict another person of sin. The Holy Spirit will work through “the Law,” even “the law written upon their hearts,” to convict people of their need for grace. I am sometimes asked, “Do I need to tell my sister that she’s sinning?” In the majority of cases, people know when they’re sinning. They can feel it in their heart of hearts. And in those cases where they are confused, it is not our job to deliver the Law. If we are asked, we should speak the truth we have come to know. But generally people know, and generally people know what we believe. More importantly, it’s goodness that leads to repentance (Romans 2:4). It is not condemnation, threats and fear, hellfire and brimstone, that lead to genuine confession and transformation. It’s the grace of God that saves and the grace of God that sanctifies.

 

[Dr.Who]

I’m going to save HOMOSEXUAL MARRIAGE for the next part of this series. Then I’ll explain some of the reasons why I believe the Bible makes clear that homosexuality is not intended and why acting upon same-sex desires is wrong. What I’ve provided above is really just a formal analysis of the logic of my own position. I’ve explained (in part) what I believe is wrong, but I’ve not yet explained why I believe it’s wrong. I owe you that.

In conclusion, whatever I might want to believe (and, to be honest, I want to believe that same-sex inclinations and behaviors are perfectly okay), I am convinced that this is the truth of the matter. C. S. Lewis called himself “the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England,” and I likewise come to this view with great reluctance. It doesn’t make me popular in intellectual circles, and it certainly doesn’t help my case with any future faculty hiring committees (not that I’m looking to re-enter academia right now). So why speak up at all? Why not keep my mouth shut, and just say the nice stuff about grace?

Because, ultimately, I think it’s self-destructive to do what is wrong. I believe that God communicates his will to us for our own benefit. We are most truly ourselves, living the life we were intended to live, when we are acting in obedience. If disobedience is self-destruction, and if you care about someone, and they are acting in disobedient / self-destructive ways, and they ask you whether you think they’re doing something wrong, you owe them your true conviction. The false binds us in confusion and sin; the truth sets free. So, yes, I believe that my gay friends, my friends who act upon their homosexual inclinations, are doing harm to themselves. I believe they are acting in self-destructive ways. I know they feel otherwise, and they will not like me for saying this. But I hope they believe me when I say that I only tell them this because I sincerely believe it’s the truth, and I sincerely believe the truth leads to freedom.

And because I care for them. I don’t like conflict, and I don’t need the controversy. If I did not care, I would just shut my mouth.

http://www.patheos.com/community/philosophicalfragments/2011/08/17/is-homosexuality-wrong/

 

[Openmind]

I’m going to save HOMOSEXUAL MARRIAGE for the next part of this series. Then I’ll explain some of the reasons why I believe the Bible makes clear that homosexuality is not intended and why acting upon same-sex desires is wrong. What I’ve provided above is really just a formal analysis of the logic of my own position. I’ve explained (in part) what I believe is wrong, but I’ve not yet explained why I believe it’s wrong. I owe you that.

In conclusion, whatever I might want to believe (and, to be honest, I want to believe that same-sex inclinations and behaviors are perfectly okay), I am convinced that this is the truth of the matter. C. S. Lewis called himself “the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England,” and I likewise come to this view with great reluctance. It doesn’t make me popular in intellectual circles, and it certainly doesn’t help my case with any future faculty hiring committees (not that I’m looking to re-enter academia right now). So why speak up at all? Why not keep my mouth shut, and just say the nice stuff about grace?

Because, ultimately, I think it’s self-destructive to do what is wrong. I believe that God communicates his will to us for our own benefit. We are most truly ourselves, living the life we were intended to live, when we are acting in obedience. If disobedience is self-destruction, and if you care about someone, and they are acting in disobedient / self-destructive ways, and they ask you whether you think they’re doing something wrong, you owe them your true conviction. The false binds us in confusion and sin; the truth sets free. So, yes, I believe that my gay friends, my friends who act upon their homosexual inclinations, are doing harm to themselves. I believe they are acting in self-destructive ways. I know they feel otherwise, and they will not like me for saying this. But I hope they believe me when I say that I only tell them this because I sincerely believe it’s the truth, and I sincerely believe the truth leads to freedom.

And because I care for them. I don’t like conflict, and I don’t need the controversy. If I did not care, I would just shut my mouth.

http://www.patheos.com/community/philosophicalfragments/2011/08/17/is-homosexuality-wrong/

Thank you. Very interesting reading.

Although this very talented, intelligent, and insightful writer makes great points and has obviously not just taken dogmas for granted, I still can't agree with him that homosexuality (or at least. . acting on homosexual drives) is wrong. But I can certainly respect his point of view and appreciate that his reflections come without hatred, without false "canned" reasons, and with a lot of personal, deep reflections.

It is a pleasure to read such an intelligent expose. I thank you for the link, and will probably visit it to get more of this author's views.

 

[Pandora]

I really liked that, thank you for posting it. I could not find anything I disagreed with but he said it in a much kinder way than I would ever know how to do.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

what a religion says about someone should have zero to do with there rights as a American..therefor I could care less what someone things as a Christian pro or against...

 

[Pandora]

what a religion says about someone should have zero to do with there rights as a American..therefor I could care less what someone things as a Christian pro or against...

You are right, One persons religious views should not have to effect another persons lifestyle.

But could you also agree that a person who has a religious faith or belief should not be forced to accept another persons lifestyle?

Some people feel that if you do not accept their life style then you are hurting them or against them or not respecting them.

A person should be able to keep their religious beliefs as long as they don't force you to live by them and that should be ok just as a homosexual should be able to live their life and not worry that some faiths out there disapprove of his or her lifestyle.

I don't get why all the talk on homosexuality really, adultery is a bigger sin. Any sex without marriage is a sin. No one gets so upset with christians when they talk about those sins, just when homosexuality comes up.

I think thats weird

 

[Openmind]

You are right, One persons religious views should not have to effect another persons lifestyle.

But could you also agree that a person who has a religious faith or belief should not be forced to accept another persons lifestyle?

Some people feel that if you do not accept their life style then you are hurting them or against them or not respecting them.

A person should be able to keep their religious beliefs as long as they don't force you to live by them and that should be ok just as a homosexual should be able to live their life and not worry that some faiths out there disapprove of his or her lifestyle.

I don't get why all the talk on homosexuality really, adultery is a bigger sin. Any sex without marriage is a sin. No one gets so upset with christians when they talk about those sins, just when homosexuality comes up.

I think thats weird

See, sometime we agree!

 

[Dr.Who]

I don't get why all the talk on homosexuality really, adultery is a bigger sin. Any sex without marriage is a sin. No one gets so upset with christians when they talk about those sins, just when homosexuality comes up.

I think thats weird

Adulterers don't have lobbies, don't organize themselves, and have not enlisted the aid of countless dupes who think it is all just about being accepted as people who were born that way. Homosexuality as discussed on this thread is one issue that won't be destroying America, but an agenda of a gay political group is a very different issue.

 

[Dr.Who]

what a religion says about someone should have zero to do with there rights as a American..therefor I could care less what someone things as a Christian pro or against...

Normally that is true. But sometimes people from religious traditions come up with perspectives on things that ring true for virtually all Americans and those ideas become the driving force of the world not because they are religious but because they are good ideas.

One could probably make a good case that the vast majority of the rights we hold most dear are a direct result of the ideas of Christianity.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

You are right, One persons religious views should not have to effect another persons lifestyle.

But could you also agree that a person who has a religious faith or belief should not be forced to accept another persons lifestyle?

Some people feel that if you do not accept their life style then you are hurting them or against them or not respecting them.

A person should be able to keep their religious beliefs as long as they don't force you to live by them and that should be ok just as a homosexual should be able to live their life and not worry that some faiths out there disapprove of his or her lifestyle.

I don't get why all the talk on homosexuality really, adultery is a bigger sin. Any sex without marriage is a sin. No one gets so upset with christians when they talk about those sins, just when homosexuality comes up.

I think thats weird

Christians don't get as mad about those ones....because they are to busy doing them. Also there is no law saying you can't have sex if your not married...there is one that says gays can't get married..take away all the people crying to stop gays from being married..who cheated, had sex before marriage, or have had oral sex ( also a sin) watched porn ( sin) or looked with lust at someone else ( sin) and its a small group talking...

A man and a woman who have raped and killed people...can get married and no one will say a word...but to guys who have done nothing wrong to anyone, who love each other and want to spend there lives as one...They are sinners who are destroying marriage.

But pandora if you want to see people get pissed about those ones, its easy...watch the Christian right try to pass laws putting adulterers in jail, or jail for people who have sex without marriage. People don't get pissed about those issues as much because its nothing but words..often from people who can't even live up to them...gay Marriage has real actions and real effects on others who don't share the same view.

Also if marriage is about a man and woman and based on the church and god and all that...how come a atheist man and woman can legally marry? I don't believe in the Jedao/Christian god, maybe I should be legally banned as well.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Normally that is true. But sometimes people from religious traditions come up with perspectives on things that ring true for virtually all Americans and those ideas become the driving force of the world not because they are religious but because they are good ideas.

One could probably make a good case that the vast majority of the rights we hold most dear are a direct result of the ideas of Christianity.

they could, but it would be wrong...many Christians have this odd idea that somehow before them there was no morals..Most of what they have , is taken from others before them. there was marriage before Christians, and before jews, and before the Romans, and before the greeks, and ....

Name one idea that did not exist before Christians...
Forgiveness? sorry was around.
don't kill? kinda been around in many cultures well before them ( also they are not good at living up to that one anyway)
Don't steal? yea kinda old idea, long before Jesus.

 

[Pandora]

Christians don't get as mad about those ones....because they are to busy doing them. Also there is no law saying you can't have sex if your not married...there is one that says gays can't get married..take away all the people crying to stop gays from being married..who cheated, had sex before marriage, or have had oral sex ( also a sin) watched porn ( sin) or looked with lust at someone else ( sin) and its a small group talking...

Christians do speak about those things, and yes some still do them. Some are closet homosexuals too. How many times has it been said in this forum alone that homophobes are closet homosexuals? The thing is, they only get the push back when they say something about homosexuals and that leads to the bickering, no one gets offended enough to push back when some preacher says we should not be promiscuous or we have sinned if we committed adultery. except for maybe planned parenthood

As for the homosexual marriage.. Homosexuals only really came out of the closet in the 70s and the push for marriage didn’t start till about ten years ago. Its going to take time to change any culture. Eventually everyone will be able to marry everyone, in the meantime I also am only allowed to marry one single male assuming I am already not married. You are only allowed to marry one single female assuming you are not already married. I am under the exact same laws as a homosexual. I can’t marry a girl and you can’t marry a guy.

man and a woman who have raped and killed people...can get married and no one will say a word...but to guys who have done nothing wrong to anyone, who love each other and want to spend there lives as one...They are sinners who are destroying marriage.

I can’t marry the one I love either. And homosexuals are no more sinners than anyone else sinning their various sins...They are just the only group who gets offended when they hear its called a sin.

pandora if you want to see people get pissed about those ones, its easy...watch the Christian right try to pass laws putting adulterers in jail, or jail for people who have sex without marriage. People don't get pissed about those issues as much because its nothing but words..often from people who can't even live up to them...gay Marriage has real actions and real effects on others who don't share the same view.

I would fight any laws forcing non christians to live like christians, heck it’s hard enough to get the Christians to live like Christians

if marriage is about a man and woman and based on the church and god and all that...how come a atheist man and woman can legally marry? I don't believe in the Jedao/Christian god, maybe I should be legally banned as well.

What you speak of is “government marriage” its only value is for financial reason. If you have read any of my posts on the topic, I think the government should be out of the marriage business all together. It should go back to the way it was pre IRS. 2 people decided to get married, they brought their bible to their preacher, pastor, priest.. One of each of their parents signed the bible as a witness along with the preacher and the couple after the ceremony and they were married. 9 homosexual men and 7 homosexual women could all marry each other at their unitarian church or make up a new church and they could get married. Now would anyone accept their marriage as valid and legal? Probably lots of people would not, but they would not accept a government marriage either. You cant force people to accept your life style.

Back in the day before government got involved in marriage when a couple got married who were not practicing Christians, many people that knew them did not accept that marriage as valid or legal in the eyes of God because they were not Christian. When courthouse marriages became legal many people did not accept those as valid marriages either because they were not done in a church or by a minister.

You just have to give up the idea that you can force other people to accept your lifestyle.

Though all these years later no one seems to care much if you were married in a church or at a courthouse, or if you are an atheist...all seem to be accepted for the most part by todays society. Over time “most” people will come to accept anything thats been around a while as valid.

I might be an exception...I know many people today who are legally married in the eyes of the courts but in my eyes they are living together. I believe marriage is a covenant between a man, woman & God. If God has been left out then its two people shacking up. But it should not matter to you or anyone what I see with my eyes.