Gun Rights vs. Gun Control

[palerider]

I was right there with you until the last paragraph. While I can certainly respect the idea, and can't think of a better way to safely police a college campus (campus security is a joke most anywhere), there are some problems with it.

Take my school for instance. I go to an art school in New Hampshire. Most of my professors are artists themselves. They're good at writing short stories and painting murals; none of them, to my knowledge, has ever had much, if any, experience with firearms. Quite frankly, the idea of most of them with guns is frightening because they'd probably just make bad situations worse with firearms.

Like I said, I respect the idea. I just think that making it work universally would be tough. Your thoughts?

Do you believe that because a person has an artistic nature that he or she is incapable of defending himself or others? I made my living as a gold smith for quite a few years and consider myself to be a quite accomplished artist. I paint a pretty good watercolor as well. And I can shoot a 2" pattern at 25 feet with my safari arms matchmaster.

 

[palerider]

Again, I see where your coming from, but me personally who, like yourself, has extensive weaps training, would rather protect myself and have my life in my own hands then place it in someone elses.

I still don't favor allowing 18 year olds to carry consealed. I believe I could be convinced to allow 18 year olds to carry openly, but consealed is a different matter.

 

[vyo476]

Do you believe that because a person has an artistic nature that he or she is incapable of defending himself or others? I made my living as a gold smith for quite a few years and consider myself to be a quite accomplished artist. I paint a pretty good watercolor as well. And I can shoot a 2" pattern at 25 feet with my safari arms matchmaster.

I didn't say that people of an artistic nature are inherently incapable of defending him/herself. I was just using my own college as a case study: none of my professors would be able to effectively defend us, the students, using firearms. I myself am an artist who learned a few things about firearms; my father was in the Army Special Forces and he taught me how to shoot when I was little (although admittedly I haven't done it in a long, long time).

As for my professors: None of them have any background in firearms and while it is possible that they could learn, the ones I spoke to on this issue expressed a violent dislike for the very idea of being taught the proper uses of firearms. They were even less receptive to the idea of carrying weapons in classrooms. These are some of the most qualified professionals in their fields; there really aren't a whole lot of people better at what they do than they are. So getting rid of them as teachers would be highly detrimental to the school and they would refuse to learn how to shoot - what then?

 

[palerider]

That's because ultimately he is a coward - so you would expect him to react according to his nature. The more this guy talks, the more he exposes himself. He'd be under the desk crying.

I volunteered to serve in Viet Nam. I did 2 tours there. I came home with a PH with an oak leaf. Look up a place called Tay Ninh and an operation called Attleboro in the fall of 1966. The first time I was ever shot at was there.

You have a knack for talking, seemingly just to hear yourself talk. You don't know jack about me. My nature, is such that I know excactly what it is like to be fired upon and how people react. You don't have a clue so nothing that you might have to say on the topic is of any particular value. The best you can do is to imagine what it might be like. Speaking from a wealth of personal experience, I can assure you that it is nothing like you might imagine and I have never met a combat veteran who says that being fired on was just like he had imagined it would be.

What he and a lot of people don't realize is that the police don't have any obligation to protect anyone in this society. WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN SELF-DEFENSE - hence the second amendment.

I am perfectly aware that the police don't have an obligation to protect any citizen. Again, talking out the side of your head. And who has mentioned the police anyway? We may be responsible for our own self defense, but that doesn't mean that kids need to be issued consealed carry permits.

 

[palerider]

I didn't say that people of an artistic nature are inherently incapable of defending him/herself. I was just using my own college as a case study: none of my professors would be able to effectively defend us, the students, using firearms. I myself am an artist who learned a few things about firearms; my father was in the Army Special Forces and he taught me how to shoot when I was little (although admittedly I haven't done it in a long, long time).

Why would none of your professors be able to defend you? Why are they incapable of being trained? Are you sure that none of them is ex military?

So getting rid of them as teachers would be highly detrimental to the school and they would refuse to learn how to shoot - what then?

It is very easy to say "I would quit before I woud do that" until you are faced with being unemployed if you don't do it, and if such a requirement existed, where would they go if all universities had the requirement. And if they left, maybe a much needed infusion of conservativism would begin to show up on college campi.

 

[Truth-Bringer]

I volunteered to serve in Viet Nam.

That was then, this is now. Now you seem to be scared to be around anyone with a gun now.

You don't know jack about me.

I know that you don't know jack about libertarians. I know that you lie a lot and use fallacious arguments a lot and then hypocritcally claim to be smarter than everyone else. And I know that you sound very scared in this thread. And that's pretty much all I need to know.

 

[palerider]

That was then, this is now. Now you seem to be scared to be around anyone with a gun now.

Again, you are just talking to hear yourself talk.

I know that you don't know jack about libertarians. I know that you lie a lot and use fallacious arguments a lot and then hypocritcally claim to be smarter than everyone else. And I know that you sound very scared in this thread. And that's pretty much all I need to know.

I know far more about them than you. I was one when I was young and dumb. I grew out of libertarianism intellectually when I was in my 20's. Once you find an irreconcilable paradox in your philosophy, only an intellectual lightweight hangs on to it.

You interpret common sense as fear? Where exactly did I say anyting that could be construed as fear? You think not favoring allowing 18 year olds to carry consealed suggests fear? Once again, you are talking out of the side of your head without knowing what you are talking about.

 

[vyo476]

Why would none of your professors be able to defend you? Why are they incapable of being trained? Are you sure that none of them is ex military?

The President of the College is ex-military and a few of our guest lecturers have been Vietnam vets who went on to write about their experiences there. Other than that, no. Most of my professors were either employed as artists straight out of college or have stayed in academia their entire lives.

It is very easy to say "I would quit before I woud do that" until you are faced with being unemployed if you don't do it, and if such a requirement existed, where would they go if all universities had the requirement. And if they left, maybe a much needed infusion of conservativism would begin to show up on college campi.

My professors are artists who believe in the sanctity of their ideals. If they were faced with gun training or unemployment they'd be unemployed; many of them possess skills that could be used elsewhere (graphic designers would make a whole lot more cash in the advertising industry than they make as teachers) and if they felt as though continuing to teach would force them to violate their principles, then they would not continue to teach.

"Any man who is not a liberal at 20 is heartless, and any man who is not a conservative at 40 is brainless." - Winston Churchill.

I think Mr. Churchill hit the nail on the head with that (even if the ages have to be adjusted downwards a bit to compensate for our progressively younger-oriented culture). Besides, my school (the particular case which we've been discussing) is an art school. The next conservative art school I hear about will be the first.

 

[palerider]

My professors are artists who believe in the sanctity of their ideals. If they were faced with gun training or unemployment they'd be unemployed; many of them possess skills that could be used elsewhere (graphic designers would make a whole lot more cash in the advertising industry than they make as teachers) and if they felt as though continuing to teach would force them to violate their principles, then they would not continue to teach.

The sanctity of ideals takes a back seat to a pay check except in a very few cases. And there is a fair amount of truth in the old adage "those who can do, and those who can't teach."

 

[vyo476]

The sanctity of ideals takes a back seat to a pay check except in a very few cases. And there is a fair amount of truth in the old adage "those who can do, and those who can't teach."

If pay checks were the issue a group of people with potentially very high-paying skills would not be teaching.

 

[palerider]

If pay checks were the issue a group of people with potentially very high-paying skills would not be teaching.

If one takes notice of the seemingly limitless incompetence to be found in our educational system from elementary to post graduate levels, it becomes clear that few of those you might think could have high paying careers could actually perform at the level required. This may not become clear to you until you are away from college and earning a living on your own. When you are a decade away from school, look back and consider how many of your professors would have been competent enough to warrant a high paying job away from the ivory tower in the context of your own experience.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

If one takes notice of the seemingly limitless incompetence to be found in our educational system from elementary to post graduate levels, it becomes clear that few of those you might think could have high paying careers could actually perform at the level required. This may not become clear to you until you are away from college and earning a living on your own. When you are a decade away from school, look back and consider how many of your professors would have been competent enough to warrant a high paying job away from the ivory tower in the context of your own experience.

I agree with you, Palerider. The ones who go into teaching are typically those who could not make it in the actual field.

 

[Truth-Bringer]

I know far more about them than you.

LOL. No, you don't. You're getting delusional again.

I was one when I was young and dumb.

I was a conservative when I was younger. I grew out of that. Some people improve their intelligence as they age, others, like you, live in a delusional fantasy world based on false beliefs.

I grew out of libertarianism intellectually when I was in my 20's. Once you find an irreconcilable paradox in your philosophy, only an intellectual lightweight hangs on to it.

LOL. And I yet I showed your position to be completely irrational and without merit in our debate on libertarianism. All you can do is run from my questions and throw up straw men when I demonstrate your fallacies.

You interpret common sense as fear?

No, I interpret your fear as fear.

 

[vyo476]

If one takes notice of the seemingly limitless incompetence to be found in our educational system from elementary to post graduate levels, it becomes clear that few of those you might think could have high paying careers could actually perform at the level required. This may not become clear to you until you are away from college and earning a living on your own. When you are a decade away from school, look back and consider how many of your professors would have been competent enough to warrant a high paying job away from the ivory tower in the context of your own experience.

There are no ivory towers here. This is a tiny little art school in the middle of nowhere which affords them little money and little prestige. All of them have been published or displayed in galleries elsewhere. One of the requirements for becoming a teacher here is to have had experience in the field which one is applying to teach: in other words, the writers have all been published in book form or in magazines, the graphic designers have all worked in personal or organized advertising firms, the fine arts teachers have all had their work displayed in galleries all across America, etc. Many of them still do those things, although not nearly on the level they could if they didn't have to spend so much time here in New Hampshire.

Do not insult my teachers. While I don't always agree with everything they say I have a great deal of respect for them as artists and as thinkers. Perhaps your educational experiences were poor ones but do not attack mine.

 

[palerider]

And I yet I showed your position to be completely irrational and without merit in our debate on libertarianism. All you can do is run from my questions and throw up straw men when I demonstrate your fallacies.

Actually, the thread where I directly challenged you to defend your philosophy and its paradox without all your diversionary chatter still sits. Thus far, you have made no appearance to discuss the philosophy of libertarianism. If you care to have a philosophical discussion, the thread is still there and the challenge still goes unanswered by you. So much for you "proving" anything except that you aren't up to the challenge I laid down.

No, I interpret your fear as fear.

No answer huh? Other than a childish response? If you are unable to point out anything that I might have said that could be construed as fear on my part, then once again, you have been shown to simply be talking to hear yourself talk.