Handing Iraq back to Al Qaeda: How do our Iraq war vets feel about that?

[pocketfullofshells]

Makes no difference, what ever we do, republicans will bitch about it. If we do nothing we let Iraq fall, if we go in they scream impeachment for not asking them first, if he asks them the don't vote for it, then bitch about how he is weak for not going in...Whats sad is, Republicans never asked these questions when they made the stupid mistake of going in under W...And never had a plan for it in 7 years...But then question why now in 3 days time we don't have some master plan to fix the clusterF that is iraq. Lets just send in the troops, it will be over fast, and we can pay for this with oil money......

 

[Centrehalf]

I found an interesting thread:
https://www.houseofpolitics.com/threads/al-queda-in-iraq-and-syria.16894/

where OldTrapper said:



So what do you think is the right thing to do?
Stay longer? Fight harder (=more troops, more money)?

Yes, I see the waste in this but you can't force people to be what they aren't.

 

[GBFan]

Yes, I see the waste in this but you can't force people to be what they aren't.

True - but you CAN make them face what they are.

 

[Centrehalf]

True - but you CAN make them face what they are.

Why do you think that? Why is this relevant? I've read your posts you know. Is this about making the Iraqis think they are little bitches? Have you been there? If not then why are you commenting? Do you think you can make the Iraqis believe that they are what you think they are?

 

[GBFan]

Why do you think that? Why is this relevant? I've read your posts you know. Is this about making the Iraqis think they are little bitches? Have you been there? If not then why are you commenting? Do you think you can make the Iraqis believe that they are what you think they are?

No, actually, it's about making liberals look in the mirror and see the selfish little cowards they have become, how they have abdicated their responsibility to mankind, and how they have, at every turn, failed the traditions of this country.

 

[GenSeneca]

Yep.

Any other questions?

So... Because of the fact I can exercise Rights that others are denied, I am somehow obligated to sacrifice my Rights until everyone else can exercise them. Now as for those who are denied the ability to exercise their rights... what sacrifices do you believe they are obligated to make in order to gain the ability to exercise their Rights?

Sacrifice means giving up something you value for something of lesser, or no, value.

You have said that we, as Americans, have an inherent obligation to sacrifice our own Rights and Freedom for anyone who is denied the ability to exercise those same Rights and Freedoms. It's like claiming that my Right to Free Speech obligates me to wear a gag, and remain silent, until every single person on planet earth has the same Right.

"that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

The quote clearly states that all men are created... with certain unalienable Rights. So claiming I have an obligation to provide others with something they already have, something every single one of us is said to have been created with, simply defies logic. If you think you have some "right" to deny me the free exercise of my own Rights (until such time as everyone on planet earth can exercise the same Rights I'm now being denied), then you are no better than the thugs and dictators you claim to oppose.

we have an inherent responsibility to help others to gain those gifts, to be able to exercise these unalienable rights.

According to who???

My only obligation to my fellow man is to NOT violate his Rights in the process of exercising my own.

 

[GBFan]

So... Because of the fact I can exercise Rights that others are denied, I am somehow obligated to sacrifice my Rights until everyone else can exercise them. Now as for those who are denied the ability to exercise their rights... what sacrifices do you believe they are obligated to make in order to gain the ability to exercise their Rights?

Sacrifice means giving up something you value for something of lesser, or no, value.

You have said that we, as Americans, have an inherent obligation to sacrifice our own Rights and Freedom for anyone who is denied the ability to exercise those same Rights and Freedoms. It's like claiming that my Right to Free Speech obligates me to wear a gag, and remain silent, until every single person on planet earth has the same Right.


The quote clearly states that all men are created... with certain unalienable Rights. So claiming I have an obligation to provide others with something they already have, something every single one of us is said to have been created with, simply defies logic. If you think you have some "right" to deny me the free exercise of my own Rights (until such time as everyone on planet earth can exercise the same Rights I'm now being denied), then you are no better than the thugs and dictators you claim to oppose.


According to who???

My only obligation to my fellow man is to NOT violate his Rights in the process of exercising my own.

They have a phrase for this .... 'circular logic'.

 

[Lagboltz]

You prefer that we make our citizenry dependent on the government, incapable of caring for themselves, unwilling to strive to improve their lot in life? You want the government to control the populace, to dictate how you live?

You are creating another strawman. Like you, I believe that anyone that can earn a living must do so. However, 91 percent of welfare benefits go to the elderly, the disabled, and working households. Do you consider all of them "unwilling to strive to improve their lot in life?" Half of all welfare recipients leave in the first two years.

You are really out of touch with the plight of the lowest wage earners.

You're an embarrassment - to this country, to its ideals, and to its responsibility to the world.

Look, I commend you for your service to our country, it is a dirty job that requires total dedication, but you are no longer actively in a war. As a soldier in boot camp, you had to believe in what you would be fighting for - freedom and democracy for all. You were trained to kill which meant that your ego had to be reduced to one of submission.

These are excerpts from someone with basic training in the marines:

It isn't easy to get young Americans to throw away all of their parents teachings and have them learn how to hurt people. ... Every bit of the training was designed so that you followed orders given without thinking or questioning them.

The training is tough and the indoctrination is tougher. These people not only believe in themselves and their unit, but they also believe anything their commanders tell them. Each unit knows that they are the best and it would be a real black mark for anyone to question authority.

Unfortunately your indoctrination has left you with no respect for others that don't agree with you on dirty wars that fail in an attempt to spread democracy. You should be careful when you accuse others of "saying what they were told to say." You are doing precisely that yourself.

 

[BigRob]

Nowhere in this discussion have I ever suggested we should 'subjugate' someone.

You stated: "The current Pentagon estimate for the complete subjugation of the Middle East - from Syria to Pakistan - is 2.6 years. THAT is the tactical military solution." I am running with your language here. Please clarify if I am misreading your position.

In fact, I haven't even proposed that we return to Iraq. I have merely discussed our responsibility to the citizens of the world.

You, in turn, have used distractions, misrepresentations, and misstatements to avoid acknowledging our greater responsibility.

Someday, if you ask, I'll tell you what I think we should do in Iraq - but, as of yet, you've only assumed you know what I think.

I have not avoided acknowledging that we agree on an overarching greater responsibility. I just pointed out what it actually means when you get beyond the lofty rhetoric - and that it is a much more difficult and broad proposition than you seem to want to let on.

I do want to know your position on what you advocate for in Iraq. Please share.

All of that, of course, is true ... but to use it as an excuse to avoid our own responsibility is disingenuous.

It's not an excuse -- it is reality. I'll withhold further comments until I hear your response to what should be done.

No one has suggested 'nation building' - in fact, I presume you're aware that 'nation building' is a liberal left term used to try to denigrate the US providing assistance to those people who are trying to overthrow their current dictator.

Here is what President George W. Bush wrote in his own memoir: "Afghanistan was the ultimate nation building mission. We had liberated the country from a primitive dictatorship, and we had a moral obligation to leave behind something better. We also had a strategic interest in helping the Afghan people build a free society." Certainly some can attempt to assign a negative connotation to "nation building", but I think the general underlying premise is the same regardless of how one might attempt to use the term to politically shape a debate.

This is where you go so horribly wrong - in war, there is only one victory. This liberal BS that we can somehow fight half the battle, and then leave the battlefield, and expect them to play nice is not only naive, it's dangerous.

I don't make those arguments thinking people will suddenly "play nice", but rather because I can accept there are times when the best option on the table is to use limited measures to degrade the capabilities of a group that might wish to do us harm. Let's face it, in this part of the world there are so many complex issues that the best option can be at times to kick the can so to speak and achieve a measure of success in delaying a threat rather than just ripping the lid right off of Pandora's box and hoping for the best.

I never claimed to be the sole authority - the question was asked what veterans think about what's going on in Iraq. I strongly believe I, and my opinion, represent the vast majority. We - and I do mean WE - are sick and tired of being used as mere pawns to be sacrificed on the altar of political expediency. We are willing to fight to help those who want to help themselves, to advance freedom - but I'm not interested in dying so Obama can claim he ended the Iraq war (how's that story selling now?) or that he has won the war in Afghanistan and is pulling out (a truly catastrophic decision, by the way).

I can agree that Obama has been one of the worst Presidents in a long time in regards to foreign policy, but I'll withhold comments again until I see what you would propose in Iraq.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

GB needs to wait till Obama does something, so he can then just say that he is wrong and should do the oppisit. That or needs to go copy past someones idea. Good luck waiting for a plan from him.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

The US should use Air if A: Iraq asks for it. B, we have good Intell on worthwhile targets. Other then that, Sorry but its time Iraq put on its big boy pants. We can send arms, or maybe provide some training ( outside of Iraq) but outside of that, Iraqs Military needs to step up. If the Sunni get to much power you can be sure Iran will be sending in its own just like Syria..Let iran Streatch itself thin. Iran already owns South Iraq anyway...Man it would have been a great idea for someone to plan for this crap before going in..We can;t babysit Iraq forever...time to grow up and leave the nest.

 

[dogtowner]

The US should use Air if A: Iraq asks for it. B, we have good Intell on worthwhile targets. Other then that, Sorry but its time Iraq put on its big boy pants. We can send arms, or maybe provide some training ( outside of Iraq) but outside of that, Iraqs Military needs to step up. If the Sunni get to much power you can be sure Iran will be sending in its own just like Syria..Let iran Streatch itself thin. Iran already owns South Iraq anyway...Man it would have been a great idea for someone to plan for this crap before going in..We can;t babysit Iraq forever...time to grow up and leave the nest.

Day late and a dollar short now. Then did plan before but things are fluid and plan is a continual process.

 

[Texas_tea]

There will be no substantive actions taken in Iraq. Why does everyone assume that Obama wants something different in Iraq than what it happening?

 

[dogtowner]

There will be no substantive actions taken in Iraq. Why does everyone assume that Obama wants something different in Iraq than what it happening?

He did assure it would come to pass with his actions.

 

[Texas_tea]

He did assure it would come to pass with his actions.

Yes he did and not just in this case but many others. It amazes me that people still can not see BO for who/what he is.