In Defense of Capitalism & Free Markets

[orogenicman]

I am 52 and have been retired 5 or 6 years ... and just a couple weeks ago I bought a 1974 Corvette with 4 on the floor - a 350 under the hood with Edelbrock Intake and two Edelbrock four barrel carbs - and Malory Ignition.

Wow, and just think how many poor people you could have fed with the money you indulged ourself with. It's all about "me", isn't it?

I would say that in the middle of this Tuesday afternoon - I am doing just fine!

Good for you. Have you committed any acts of kindness this afternoon?

and I know business owners who have not taken much of any money out of a few of their corporations - and are still flying all over the place in their own planes!

Erm, well, let's see. They haven't taken much money, but still manage to fly planes all over the place, planes that THEY OWN.

So - you think that Legislating freedom does not deminish another persons freedom?

Legislating freedom? How about Constitutional freedoms? What other freedoms do you think you have?

 

[orogenicman]

... and I did mention as a retired guy ... I only bothered myself with a GED

... since you are so well schooled and think you are smarter than I am

WHY aren't you retired hot shot??

Because I am disabled, hot shot.

 

[RoccoR]

GenSeneca, et al,

Ah, yes --- Maximize the Wealth of the Shareholder.

It's strange that when I ask people to defend their positions they respond by attacking my support of Capitalism yet when I start a thread with the expressed purpose of defending my support of Capitalism, you can't find these people with a search warrant.

I would love to see someone open up a thread and defend their support of a mixed economy... Of course that would result in people attacking Capitalism.

Given their absence, if anyone would like to learn more about how Capitalism and/or Free Markets work, please feel free to ask me any questions, or voice any concerns, you might have regarding the issue. I would appreciate the opportunity.

(COMMENT)

First, what America is all about is Capitalism, not the expansion of "democracy." The concept of the Navy was to protect the sea lanes for "commerce." It was important to remember that our founders protected our nation for the purpose of providing a safe platform from which to conduct business.

However, modern business is taught, from the ground up, that the people of America, the health of our nation, and the standard of living we enjoy take a second place to the profits made for the upper-class and ruling elite.

Like Steel Production, the American Economy is going the way of the steel mills.

Our leaders and captains of industry will:

• Outsource any job.
• Move manufacturing.
• Strip any business.
• Crush any city and cripple any state.

All in the name of "maximizing wealth." There is no patriotism in business, only profit. The Ruling Elite and Captains of industry will not reinvest anything into the American infrastructure in order to gain a competitive advantage that will sustain jobs in this nation. They would rather spend a trillion dollars overseas, to rebuild some other nation for the purpose of exploitation.

This is not what the founders had in mind. They had a love for this nation that the Ruling Elite and Captains of Industry will never know and appreciate.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[GenSeneca]

"Open market/Capitalism" is an abstraction that is ill-defined, ambiguous, and...it means different things to different people.

The OP contains a very specific definition of Capitalism and Free Markets.

there is no God-given "right" to a free market.

Nobody has suggested there was.

I don't really understand the purpose of your post...

Did you wish to address something in particular?

It doesn't seem as though you were responding to anyone but just offering your general opinion. If that is the case, then you should learn more about Capitalism and you are welcome to take this opportunity to do so.

 

[AgainstTheMachine]

Wow, and just think how many poor people you could have fed with the money you indulged ourself with. It's all about "me", isn't it?

What a sniveler - I was HOMELESS 15 years ago - let them tried like I did!

You liberals sucked me into your nonsense - until I grew a pair and started actually DOING SOMETHING more than whimpering on places like this!

Good for you. Have you committed any acts of kindness this afternoon?

bet I have done a LOT MORE volunteer work in my community than you have in yours!
In the past several years my name HAS BEEN recognized in the local paper - how about you ... or is poor me just full of excuses?

I have been very active ... like being the founder of the towns camera club, and helping in the clean up around the lake (when it's not a community photo shoot), I also assist in the feeding of one of the parks animal exhibits with my own food, I am also about the ONLY non worker there that is allowed to take any of the exhibits out of their tanks and cages.
ALSO - I was the coordinator for 2 of the towns car shows.

SO DO TELL - WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?
​

Erm, well, let's see. They haven't taken much money, but still manage to fly planes all over the place, planes that THEY OWN.

.... yeah! .... and the point is ... WHAT??

Legislating freedom? How about Constitutional freedoms? What other freedoms do you think you have?

REPLYING TO THIS TO YOU --- total waist of time - you TOTALLY MISSED a simple concept!

... but I will try ONE time --

When you make a law to legislate the freedom of a few against others - you in effect take away another persons freedom of opinion and/or freedom of choice - which in itself is a LOSS OF FREEDOM.

You are a clueless product of schooling!

Because I am disabled, hot shot.

Poor friggin you!

So you are flaunting the use of a name (orogenic man) because you are so hands on??
It appears as though you sound like another wannabee to me.

You are probably as much into orogenesis as I am into urban anthropology!

ooooh my ... I read books on Anthropology and was even intrigued in Urban Anthropology! wooop teee dooooo!

 

[orogenicman]

What a sniveler - I was HOMELESS 15 years ago - let them tried like I did!

I was homeless last year. Congratulations. We have something in common.

You liberals sucked me into your nonsense - until I grew a pair and started actually DOING SOMETHING more than whimpering on places like this!

But apparently didn't learn much from your homeless experience, like having compassion for one's fellow man.

bet I have done a LOT MORE volunteer work in my community than you have in yours!
In the past several years my name HAS BEEN recognized in the local paper - how about you ... or is poor me just full of excuses?

I have been very active ... like being the founder of the towns camera club, and helping in the clean up around the lake (when it's not a community photo shoot), I also assist in the feeding of one of the parks animal exhibits with my own food, I am also about the ONLY non worker there that is allowed to take any of the exhibits out of their tanks and cages.
ALSO - I was the coordinator for 2 of the towns car shows.

Yeah, and I bet you pat yourself on the back everytime your face appears in the local newspaper, being on the camera club and all. Animals? Is that what you call the homeless now that you are no longer one? Oh right. You were talking about feeding real animals, whereas I was referring to acts of kindness towards one's fellow man. So I can see where you would think I am some bleeding heart liberal for showing compassion for people, as opposed to buying dog food to feed the town wildcat.

SO DO TELL - WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?
​

I volunteer twice a week at the homeless shelter I used to live in.

REPLYING TO THIS TO YOU --- total waist of time - you TOTALLY MISSED a simple concept!

... but I will try ONE time --

When you make a law to legislate the freedom of a few against others - you in effect take away another persons freedom of opinion and/or freedom of choice - which in itself is a LOSS OF FREEDOM.

You are a clueless product of schooling!

Right. And you, no doubt, were home schooled. Now I think I understand your response. What law are you talking about, dude? Have your rights somehow been infringed by this law?

Poor friggin you!

Wow, what a way to show compassion to the disabled. Such Christ-like behavior.

So you are flaunting the use of a name (orogenic man) because you are so hands on??
It appears as though you sound like another wannabee to me.

You are probably as much into orogenesis as I am into urban anthropology!

ooooh my ... I read books on Anthropology and was even intrigued in Urban Anthropology! wooop teee dooooo!

Well, sir, my alias is orogenicman because I am a geologist. And unlike you, who have only read about anthropology, I was an anthropology major for four years before I switched majors and instead became a geologist, and have worked on several archaeology projects both in the role of archaeologist and geologist. But, as you say, wooop teee doooo. What any of that has to do with the subject matter is still a mystery.

 

[RoccoR]

GenSeneca, et al,

The alternative: --- Maximize the Wealth of the Shareholder.

et al,

The answer to the question is relatively simple. But it requires two important ingredients to make it work (something we don't have):

• A national level leadership that puts the health and wealth of the nation and its people above their own.
• A leader like Imhotep, willing to make the landscape of America a haven't for business, commerce and production; more important than rebuilding some other nation.

(SOLUTION)

It is recognized that, in this current economic climate, there are two things that are difficult to do.

• Raise Taxes.
• Discount current Wage and Earning.

During WW-II we had a deficit that ran almost 100% of our GNP. My parents had to pull the belt tight, but they did it. What needs to be done, needs to focus on creating a competitive advantage to business (manufacturing) that doesn't involve wage negotiations, but is so profitable to business, they will flock to the US (CONUS).

STAGE ONE

• FIRST: The US has to nationalize all Electrical Production and distribution. THEN, as a national government effort:
  • Rebuild the national power grid and regulating system (a complete overhaul) to the most technologically efficient system in the world.
  • Initiate a national construction effort to built so much electrical power generation, that it is virtually free to Americans and manufacturing.
• SECOND: Open funding for a huge scientific and technological research projects. THEN, as a national government effort:
  • Initiate a national effort for the development for the most advance energy production systems.
  • Reinitiate the the space program and a national effort for a scientific space station and moon station for materials exploitation.
  • Initiate industrial research effort to maximize production performance.

If a manufacturer can build and operate a manufacturing plant at a cost that offsets US wages, manufacturing will return to America. By providing huge quantities of electricity, the US can provide free power to all electric production facilities to cut overhead cost and provide a competitive advantage that no other nation can match. Excess production of electric power will be sold to Mexico and Canada at 10% below the market value of power produced in those nations.

Experience has demonstrated that new and innovative discoveries are made in the research and development associated with major space programs. This may open-up new and powerful positive influences on the US economy.
STAGE TWO

• Create Production and Manufacturing Legislation - Patriotic Business Act
  • Income derived from CONUS based production and manufacturing facilities will taxed at 50% less.
  • Income derived from imported profits derived from OCONUS production and Manufacturing facilities will be taxed at 10% greater rate.
  • Businesses that outsource jobs will be taxed at 10% of the lost revenue those wages would have generated.
• American Reinvestment Act
  • All major business will set aside 20% of the profits toward industrial improvements toward production facilities.
  • Industrial improvements will result in a reduced capital gains taxation on investors.
  • Manufacturers and Corporations which have 80% or more of the employees inside CONUS will receive a tax incentive on the capital gains to shareholders.

These are the kinds of actions that can be taken to bring America into the 21st Century as a nation of Industrial might.

Of course this will cause a decline in the amount of foreign aid and nation building that the US can do until it is push a surplus. It will also be important to address.

It will never happen. We simply don't have any American Patriots in Congress and the Administration that think the Captains of Industry need reigned-in.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[GenSeneca]

Society has plenty of rights

The fallacy of Reification: a fallacy of ambiguity, when an abstraction (abstract belief or hypothetical construct) is treated as if it were a concrete, real event or physical entity. In other words, it is the error of treating as a "real thing" something which is not a real thing, but merely an idea.

Please, feel free to argue that "society" is composed of something other than a group of individuals... Feel free to argue that "society" is a physical being capable of having a thought or executing an action without a single individual.

You said that "society" had a "right" to determine our laws... How does "society" fulfill this "right" without individuals?

Capitalism is an economic system, not a system of government.

I covered that with the very first sentence of the OP... Perhaps you should have read it.

Here is what happens when capitalism isn't regulated or improperly regulated by government:

The fallacy of Reification: a fallacy of ambiguity, when an abstraction (abstract belief or hypothetical construct) is treated as if it were a concrete, real event or physical entity. In other words, it is the error of treating as a "real thing" something which is not a real thing, but merely an idea.

Capitalism didn't take human form, collect a bunch of toxic waste barrels and illegally dump them in the valley of the drums... Individuals did that. But you think such actions are the fault of unregulated, or poorly regulated, Capitalism... Then surely such things could never happen in say... Soviet Russia:

USEPA works with Russian Ministry of Natural Resources and Rostechandzor to address its major environmental challenges. For instance, Russia has inherited environmental legacy “hot spots” left by the Soviet Union. These pollution hot spots are also a major source of transboundary transport of contaminants from Russia to the United States.

According to you... Capitalism is responsible for dumping toxic waste so... How can your theory be accurate if the same thing happened in an Anti-Capitalist country half way around the world? OMG! Capitalism must have taken human form, left the US, snuck behind the Iron Curtain, rounded up toxic waste from around the country, and then dumped it in "hot spots"!

Then there is my theory... There are people in every country, living under every possible social and economic system, that dump toxic waste, violate individual rights, break laws, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Capitalism.

When capitalism is allowed to do as it pleases, both individual and societal rights (as well as the health and safety of the individual and society at large) are frequently violated.

The fallacy of Reification: a fallacy of ambiguity, when an abstraction (abstract belief or hypothetical construct) is treated as if it were a concrete, real event or physical entity. In other words, it is the error of treating as a "real thing" something which is not a real thing, but merely an idea.

Capitalism limits the role of government to protecting individual rights. Such a system cannot "do as it pleases", it's role is specifically defined and strictly limited to that one job.

What was government busy doing while people were dumping toxic barrels in the valley of the drums? I can't be sure myself but I know what government wasn't doing... Protecting individual rights.

Perhaps if government's role had been limited to just that one job, the valley of the drums would have never happened. While I can't know that for sure, I do know that limiting government's role now would go a long way to preventing such disasters in the future.

You, sir, are arguing for Anarcho-capitalism, which is about as extremist as capitalism gets.

From fallacies to outright lies... You really are a gem.

Anarcho-Capitalism: advocates the elimination of the state and the elevation of the sovereign individual in a free market.

Again, you should have read the OP. I believe government is of vital importance but it's role in society should be strictly limited to protecting individual rights.

 

[AgainstTheMachine]

I was homeless last year. Congratulations. We have something in common.



But apparently didn't learn much from your homeless experience, like having compassion for one's fellow man.



Yeah, and I bet you pat yourself on the back everytime your face appears in the local newspaper, being on the camera club and all. Animals? Is that what you call the homeless now that you are no longer one? Oh right. You were talking about feeding real animals, whereas I was referring to acts of kindness towards one's fellow man. So I can see where you would think I am some bleeding heart liberal for showing compassion for people, as opposed to buying dog food to feed the town wildcat.



I volunteer twice a week at the homeless shelter I used to live in.



Right. And you, no doubt, were home schooled. Now I think I understand your response. What law are you talking about, dude? Have your rights somehow been infringed by this law?



Wow, what a way to show compassion to the disabled. Such Christ-like behavior.



Well, sir, my alias is orogenicman because I am a geologist. And unlike you, who have only read about anthropology, I was an anthropology major for four years before I switched majors and instead became a geologist, and have worked on several archaeology projects both in the role of archaeologist and geologist. But, as you say, wooop teee doooo. What any of that has to do with the subject matter is still a mystery.

RIGHT ... to summarize your post:

1 - But apparently didn't learn much from your homeless experience, like having compassion for one's fellow man.
​

Been there done and know all the con games that a habitual homeless person plays ....

2 - whereas I was referring to acts of kindness towards one's fellow man.
​

To help a person to climb a ladder you simply MUST get out of the way.
They have to climb their own ladder to get out of the hole.

Consider this - how much help is it if a person needs a little help with food and are screwed because they can NOT AFFORD to leave they low wage job to get in the food bank line at noon and stand there for hours to get in.

3 - Right. And you, no doubt, were home schooled. Now I think I understand your response.​

there you go talking like a person with NO ABILITY to read
(what a waste of college on you) - ALL that schooling and YOU ended up homeless ... LAST YEAR? ... so you were an over schooled fiscal screw up where I was a product of 10 years of a violent step parent and I am RETIRED without that schooling!

BY THE WAY - it took me less than 15 years for my high school drop out tail to do that!!

HOME SCHOOLED? Do you have Paroxysmal dyskinesias of the tongue?
Your tongue was flapping and made absolutely NO SENSE - where did being home schooled come into this equation? Was it a smudge on your crystal ball?

WHY do you KEEP SAYING non factual stupid stuff? Is this the standard adding things of no relevance a learned value of a college education?

Wow, what a way to show compassion to the disabled. Such Christ-like behavior.
​

FIRST OFF - your comment about compassion to the disabled is a moot response - I treat you like I do ANY clueless person (assuming you are disabled)

You would be shredded by my knowledge of Biblical teaching

FYI - I never ever claimed to be Christian (the hook)

OF COURSE - you ONLY believe in parts of the Bible that appease your slothful nature and complacency!

2Th 3:10 - For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Pro 19:15 - Slothfulness casteth into a deep sleep; and an idle soul shall suffer hunger.

 

[GenSeneca]

Since you are only commenting, loosely, on Capitalism, I will limit my reply accordingly...

This is not what the founders had in mind.

In the context of what we are doing now as a nation, I can agree with that one statement but I can't find anything else in your two posts that I could agree with. The whole idea of "free" energy is totally unrealistic... Even if you used slave labor, they would have to be fed, housed, clothed, trained, etc. and that would cost money.

I would also like to point out that much of what you seem to be worked up about are what I call economic ghost stories... Like the loss of manufacturing jobs in America.

Did you know the US is still the world leader (#1) in manufacturing?

That graph shows US manufacturing vs. TOTAL GDP from the top 5 nations in the world. THIS LINK should show you a graph comparing the total GDP of all 6 countries... The total US GDP is 300% larger than Japan, the next closest country.

I do give you credit where it is due, for having come up with such a detailed "comment", complete with bullet points, and for being very thorough and respectful in explaining your solution.

 

[RoccoR]

GenSeneca, et al,

I appreciate your response.

The whole idea of "free" energy is totally unrealistic...

economic ghost stories... Like the loss of manufacturing jobs in America.
Did you know the US is still the world leader (#1) in manufacturing?

(COMMENT)

Obviously, when the energy industry is nationalized, the operating cost transfer to the government. It is doable, it does require building about 125% greater capacity.

Manufacturing GDP is not jobs. There are many people, including myself, that are out of a job. (That is not a Ghost.) We haven't even touched on under employment, or employment clustering.

Look at the graph, then look at the population and area of of Japan (128+M at 145883 sq miles). Now look at the graph and the population and area of the US (307+M at 3.79M square miles). If anything, the graph shows how far behind the US is relative to the potential. If the US was anywhere close to parity with Japan then we should have (at least) twice the output given resources. But the graph shows (eyeballing it here) Japan at about $4.6T Output to the US $3.75T.

Again, thanks for your response, I really appreciate it.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[orogenicman]

RIGHT ... to summarize your post:

1 - But apparently didn't learn much from your homeless experience, like having compassion for one's fellow man.
​

Been there done and know all the con games that a habitual homeless person plays ....

2 - whereas I was referring to acts of kindness towards one's fellow man.
​

To help a person to climb a ladder you simply MUST get out of the way.
They have to climb their own ladder to get out of the hole.

Consider this - how much help is it if a person needs a little help with food and are screwed because they can NOT AFFORD to leave they low wage job to get in the food bank line at noon and stand there for hours to get in.

3 - Right. And you, no doubt, were home schooled. Now I think I understand your response.​

there you go talking like a person with NO ABILITY to read
(what a waste of college on you) - ALL that schooling and YOU ended up homeless ... LAST YEAR? ... so you were an over schooled fiscal screw up where I was a product of 10 years of a violent step parent and I am RETIRED without that schooling!

BY THE WAY - it took me less than 15 years for my high school drop out tail to do that!!

HOME SCHOOLED? Do you have Paroxysmal dyskinesias of the tongue?
Your tongue was flapping and made absolutely NO SENSE - where did being home schooled come into this equation? Was it a smudge on your crystal ball?

WHY do you KEEP SAYING non factual stupid stuff? Is this the standard adding things of no relevance a learned value of a college education?

Wow, what a way to show compassion to the disabled. Such Christ-like behavior.
​

FIRST OFF - your comment about compassion to the disabled is a moot response - I treat you like I do ANY clueless person (assuming you are disabled)

You would be shredded by my knowledge of Biblical teaching

FYI - I never ever claimed to be Christian (the hook)

OF COURSE - you ONLY believe in parts of the Bible that appease your slothful nature and complacency!

So what you are saying is that you lack compassion for your fellow man because the Bible tells you so. Why does that not surprise me?

 

[GenSeneca]

At the risk of getting totally off my threads topic, I will respond further...

Your solution would have the exact opposite effect that you hope to obtain.

Obviously, when the energy industry is nationalized, the operating cost transfer to the government.

How will nationalization make the production of energy "free"?

Manufacturing GDP is not jobs.

I want to know about your perception of cause and effect.

What causes a job to be created?

If the US was anywhere close to parity with Japan then we should have (at least) twice the output given resources. But the graph shows (eyeballing it here) Japan at about $4.6T Output to the US $3.75T.

I think you misread the graph. That $4.6T from Japan is their total GDP from all sectors of their economy, the $3.75T from the US is only the Manufacturing sector of our economy. If all the US manufacturers were to form their own country, they would have the 3rd largest GDP in the world, tied with Germany. The US would have to lose 60% of its manufacturing to be tied with manufacturing in Japan.

Now I don't know if you were talking about parity in terms of physical property (land mass) in relation to GDP but if you were, that is a totally irrational and nonsensical measurement. If greater land mass resulted in higher GDP, Russia would be the world leader but they aren't even close.

 

[RoccoR]

GenSeneca, et al,

My idea, was just one idea, and like all human creations, it is not perfect - or - expressed in detail (more thumbnail).

It is a similar concept to METI (formerly MITI) created from components of the Japanese Ministry of Commerce and Industry. The METI forerunner was created out of a need - at a time when Japan needed to recover from the economic apocalypse, when inflation was rising and the government urgently wanted to jump start productivity and reduce unemployment - in reviving the national economy.

• I want to know about your perception of cause and effect.
  
• What causes a job to be created?

(COMMENT)

Capitalism and the Free Market structure are essential to America as its primary foundation of our nation and our way of life. It is rooted in the basic concepts as expressed by the founders.

“Money, not morality, is the principle of commerce and commercial nations.” ---- AND --- “Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations...entangling alliances with none.”
Thomas Jefferson

“I am for free commerce with all nations; political connection with none; and little or no diplomatic establishment.”
George Washington

Free Markets actually drive the ability to promote commerce, and my suggestion was to create a competitive advantage that would induce a conditions and an environment which would promote production and scientific/technical support to manufacturing and production expansion.

(ANSWER) A competitive advantage in the production of a commodity in demand will allow one to one producer to thrive over others, expanding and there by creating jobs.​

My comment was to suggest the idea that a $4.6T GDP produced by 128M people (GDP per capita) is a much better economy than a lesser $3.75T produced by twice as many people. The parity suggested meant "GDP per Capita; and the reference to area was to suggest production to land utilization flexibility and resources in abundance.

Population, area and technical production capability mean little individually; but collectively they render a picture of capacity. As the technology in an ability to create a competitive advantage increases, the greater the opportunity there is for an increase in GDP. But it assumes the nation really wants to take the effort to create a competitive advantage and maintain it. As the GDP per Capita rises, the revenue streams increase to allow greater reinvestment by government to maintain and improve the advantage. More money circulates within the economy generating even more jobs as greater manufacturing and production inspires growth.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[GenSeneca]

My idea, was just one idea

Please, explain how nationalization will result in "free" energy.

It is a similar concept to METI (formerly MITI) created from components of the Japanese Ministry of Commerce and Industry.

The Japanese are fiscal basket cases. If you haven't read about it already, check out "Japan's Lost Decade", it was a period of 10 years where Keynesian economic policy created a depression and saddled Japan with massive, unsustainable, debt.

(ANSWER) A competitive advantage in the production of a commodity in demand will allow one to one producer to thrive over others, expanding and there by creating jobs.

The short answer is: Profits. Both realized and potential profits can create a job but only realized profits can sustain a job.

That being said, your idea of nationalization to provide "free" energy to industry is the cause and the "competitive advantage" to industry is the effect. Now all you have to do is provide a rational explanation of how nationalization will result in "free" energy.

My comment was to suggest the idea that a $4.6T GDP produced by 128M people (GDP per capita) is a much better economy than a lesser $3.75T produced by twice as many people.

I was correct, you misunderstand the graph... Japan's GDP per capita is $38,500 and America's GDP per capita is $48,000. As for national resources, it is not our inefficient use of them that hampers the economy, it is government interference that hampers the economy.

I'll offer my own suggestion for revitalizing the economy and it's simple:

1. Cut government spending by 50% across the board - 10% per year over 5 years.

2. Immediately Reduce Tax rates - Set the capital gains and progressive income tax at 15% across the board (flat tax) with no exemptions and completely eliminate the corporate tax.

There are lots of other steps that could be taken in a more comprehensive plan but those two are the most important because their positive results on the economy would be immediate and widespread.