Is Christianity responsible for equality and liberty?

Spoken like a true multiculty ^%$^&%&*&*^*.

Anyone who commends Christianity is by liberal logic condemning all other religions. So thinks the liberal multiculty.....................

Balony.

There is a difference between "commending Christianity" and claiming that all good things come from that religion.

The US is a secular state with separation of church and state written right into the Constitution. Here, we have Christians, both the Catholic and protestant varieties that have been known to kill each other in the name of religion, we have Muslims, of both the Shia and Sunni variety who are known to kill each other in other parts of the world, Sikhs who have come here to avoid persecution from their Hindu neighbors, Hindus who also enjoy our religious freedom, all living in peace. It is one of our greatest accomplishments as a nation, and you dismiss it as "multiculty ^%$^&%&*&*^*"

And, you do it through your bogus "liberal" vs. "conservative" blinders.

What a pile of nonsense.
 
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Balony.

There is a difference between "commending Christianity" and claiming that all good things come from that religion.

The US is a secular state with separation of church and state written right into the Constitution. Here, we have Christians, both the Catholic and protestant varieties that have been known to kill each other in the name of religion, we have Muslims, of both the Shia and Sunni variety who are known to kill each other in other parts of the world, Sikhs who have come here to avoid persecution from their Hindu neighbors, Hindus who also enjoy our religious freedom, all living in peace. It is one of our greatest accomplishments as a nation, and you dismiss it as "multiculty ^%$^&%&*&*^*"

And, you do it through your bogus "liberal" vs. "conservative" blinders.

What a pile of nonsense.

Come on THC, lighten up on the bong.

You just claimed that someone here asserted "...all good things come from that religion (Christianity)." No one made this claim EXCEPT YOU. Your debating tactics must have been learned from Saul Lewinsky and Rosie O'Donnell.

Your mind is so completely taken over by liberalism (and overuse of mary jane) that you are incapable of objective thinking. If you work with me here, I can return you to a healthy thinking individual.
 
Getting back to the central theme: Is Christianity responsible for equality and liberty?

Considering things like, no one likes to be told what to do (governments). And that one of the reasons mankind has spread throughout the livable world like a drop of oil on a pond. For instance Daniel Boone founding the town of Boone's Borough while stating he had a need for "elbow room", but took more than 100 people with him, suggesting he wanted less government control rather than less contact with people.
In short, man does not like the confines of authoritative government and when he just cannot move away, prefers democracy (equality and liberty), to other forms of government as being least intolerable.
Therefore, that may be the basic element having influenced equality and liberty, not necessarily Christianity.
 
Who, aside from you, has insinuated such?

Eh?

My education in social and political philosophy came from an american-established state university -- hence is the furthest thing from religious conformism.

Duh?

As is the Inquizition; the slaughter of the Huguenots, Albingeses, etc.; what is called the "Midnight of rhe Dark Ages", and the "Rule of the Harlots" in reference to the papacy; etc.

And you think catholics never experienced persecution in europe and asia, eh?

What ignorant nonsense!

More deception. What has the RCC done to eliminate poverty? In every country in which it has had an immense amount of influence poverty has grown. Look at Brazil, Argentina, Guatamala, Mexico, Spain, etc. NONE have risen to the wealth of the US under Protestant influence. In the meantime, the coffers of the RCC have grown beyond belief, and the priests live quite comfortably regardless of the poverty around them. Not quite what Christ had in mind.

You really believe that there is a logical relationship between protestantism and economic development?????

And I'm the one with more deception, eh?

As to equality, you again avoid the discussion by pleading ignorance. You try to limit it to a qualifier being the sexes when you know quite well that my question was not that at all, unless you are such a dolt that common sense cannot permeate your brianwashed mind. Is there even equality within the RCC if you want to use the sexes? Is there a famale "pope", or a female "bishop"?

Which begs the question -- what the hell kind of equality are you asking for, anyway? Is equality even a quantitative phenomenon?

And if you even have the merest intellectual honesty, you would realize that the country I mentioned was a former us colony whose constitution, jurisprudence and political setup is very much like yours.

Duh?

So, whether you want to use poverty as a measure, or equality, the RCC is lacking.

What idiotic nonsense! Is there even equality in wealth within a laissez faire economy? And you say the us does not have a gap between rich and poor, eh?

Besides, the rcc isn't a country. The vatican is a country.

Duh?

Has nothing to do with Christiandom.

LOL.

But it has something to do with protestantism, eh? What a bald-faced liar you are!

Obviously you are the scent of the fart.

What a witty comeback! Sort of like trying to solve calculus by scratching your butt.

Duh?

Guess it is something the RCC has determined it need not practice. Or, could you just be full of BS. In any event, Jefferson, Locke, Rosseau, Smith, and many others, would strongly disagree with your conclusion.

Well, it certainly explains your braindead attitude when it comes to the influence of Protestantism on the "American experiment".

Sigh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law

Natural law theories have exercised a profound influence on the development of English common law,[3] and have featured greatly in the philosophies of Thomas Aquinas, Francisco Suárez, Richard Hooker, Thomas Hobbes, Hugo Grotius, Samuel von Pufendorf, John Locke, Francis Hutcheson, Jean Jacques Burlamaqui, and Emmerich de Vattel. Because of the intersection between natural law and natural rights, it has been cited as a component in United States Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States. The essence of Declarationism is that the founding of the United States is based on Natural law.

and

Christian natural law

Paul of Tarsus wrote in his Epistle to the Romans: "For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things contained in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law unto themselves, their conscience also bearing witness."[32] The intellectual historian A.J. Carlyle has commented on this passage as follows:

"There can be little doubt that St Paul's words imply some conception analogous to the 'natural law' in Cicero, a law written in men's hearts, recognized by man's reason, a law distinct from the positive law of any State, or from what St Paul recognized as the revealed law of God. It is in this sense that St Paul's words are taken by the Fathers of the fourth and fifth centuries like St Hilary of Poitiers, St Ambrose, and St Augustine, and there seems no reason to doubt the correctness of their interpretation."[33]

Some early Church Fathers, especially those in the West, sought to incorporate natural law into Christianity. The most notable among these was Augustine of Hippo, who equated natural law with man's prelapsarian state; as such, a life according to nature was no longer possible and men needed instead to seek salvation through the divine law and grace of Jesus Christ.

In the Twelfth Century, Gratian equated the natural law with and divine law. A century later, St. Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologiae I-II qq. 90-106, restored Natural Law to its independent state, asserting natural law as the rational creature's participation in the eternal law. Yet, since human reason could not fully comprehend the Eternal law, it needed to be supplemented by revealed Divine law. (See also Biblical law in Christianity.) Meanwhile, Aquinas taught that all human or positive laws were to be judged by their conformity to the natural law. An unjust law is not a law, in the full sense of the word. It retains merely the 'appearance' of law insofar as it is duly constituted and enforced in the same way a just law is, but is itself a 'perversion of law.'[34] At this point, the natural law was not only used to pass judgment on the moral worth of various laws, but also to determine what the law said in the first place. This principle laid the seed for possible societal tension with reference to tyrannts.[35]

The natural law was inherently teleological and deontological in that although it is aimed at goodness, it is entirely focused on the ethicalness of actions, rather than the consequence. The specific content of the natural law was therefore determined by a conception of what things constituted happiness, be they temporal satisfaction or salvation. The state, in being bound by the natural law, was conceived as an institution directed at bringing its subjects to true happiness.

In the 16th century, the School of Salamanca (Francisco Suárez, Francisco de Vitoria, etc.) further developed a philosophy of natural law. After the Church of England broke from Rome, the English theologian Richard Hooker adapted THOMISTIC notions of natural law to Anglicanism.

Surprise, surprise! You are WRONG. And your wrong opinion is directly attributable to -- guess what??? -- your painful lack of education about the topics you talk about.

Uhmmm....duh?
 
Getting back to the central theme: Is Christianity responsible for equality and liberty?

Considering things like, no one likes to be told what to do (governments). And that one of the reasons mankind has spread throughout the livable world like a drop of oil on a pond. For instance Daniel Boone founding the town of Boone's Borough while stating he had a need for "elbow room", but took more than 100 people with him, suggesting he wanted less government control rather than less contact with people.
In short, man does not like the confines of authoritative government and when he just cannot move away, prefers democracy (equality and liberty), to other forms of government as being least intolerable.
Therefore, that may be the basic element having influenced equality and liberty, not necessarily Christianity.

Exactly. Substitute "democracy" for "Christianity" in the title, and you have an unqualified positive answer.
 
Balony.

There is a difference between "commending Christianity" and claiming that all good things come from that religion.

The US is a secular state with separation of church and state written right into the Constitution. Here, we have Christians, both the Catholic and protestant varieties that have been known to kill each other in the name of religion, we have Muslims, of both the Shia and Sunni variety who are known to kill each other in other parts of the world, Sikhs who have come here to avoid persecution from their Hindu neighbors, Hindus who also enjoy our religious freedom, all living in peace. It is one of our greatest accomplishments as a nation, and you dismiss it as "multiculty ^%$^&%&*&*^*"

And, you do it through your bogus "liberal" vs. "conservative" blinders.

What a pile of nonsense.

Its simple really. When one examines 'equality' within the context of the us constitution, one is inexorably led to NATURAL LAW as explained by the early church fathers.

During the reformation, it is this idea itself that the protestants used to deny the authority of the pope in rome.

When the american founding fathers declared independence from england, they did so on the basis of natural law.

Even as recent as the previous century, there arose within the catholic church what is known as liberation theology -- the idea that social justice is a PRE-CONDITION to any magesterial function of the church.

These are academic FACTS. When state funds for education are used to teach these to students, it is no longer an issue of the first ammendment rather A QUESTION OF WHETHER EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS (PUBLIC OR PRIVATE) ARE BOUND TO TEACH FACTS OR NOT.
 
Democracy is authoritarian by design and not compatible with individual equality and liberty.

A pure democracy is an authoritarian rule by the majority.

What we have in the US is not a pure democracy, but a constitutional republic.

We call it a democracy, I called it that above, but it technically is not a democracy.

So, perhaps I should have said that the Constitution is responsible for equality and liberty.

But, isn't democracy the basis of our Constitution?
 
Getting back to the central theme: Is Christianity responsible for equality and liberty?

Considering things like, no one likes to be told what to do (governments). And that one of the reasons mankind has spread throughout the livable world like a drop of oil on a pond. For instance Daniel Boone founding the town of Boone's Borough while stating he had a need for "elbow room", but took more than 100 people with him, suggesting he wanted less government control rather than less contact with people.
In short, man does not like the confines of authoritative government and when he just cannot move away, prefers democracy (equality and liberty), to other forms of government as being least intolerable.
Therefore, that may be the basic element having influenced equality and liberty, not necessarily Christianity.

Liberty and equality are functions of the political association and its laws because of NATURAL LAW.

Your founding fathers knew about this when they copied john lockes political theory almost to the letter.

And john locke, talking about 'all men being created equal' as 'self-evident truth' was obviously refering to natural law.

This idea was explicitly stated by thomas aquainas almost a millenium ago in his summa theologica.

And even then, he couldn't even claim full credit for the idea since it was the subject of theological speculation of church fathers in the 4th century.

It is the height of ignorance to over-simplify 'equality and liberty' as a longing for 'elbow room' or some inherent mistrust of government powers.
 
A pure democracy is an authoritarian rule by the majority.

What we have in the US is not a pure democracy, but a constitutional republic.

We call it a democracy, I called it that above, but it technically is not a democracy.

So, perhaps I should have said that the Constitution is responsible for equality and liberty.

But, isn't democracy the basis of our Constitution?

Wrong.

Liberty and equality do not come about because of a constitution. They are self-evident truths the validity of which do not rest on some written document. Your constitution merely affirms what any rational human being knows.
 
Wrong.

Liberty and equality do not come about because of a constitution. They are self-evident truths the validity of which do not rest on some written document. Your constitution merely affirms what any rational human being knows.

If liberty and equality are "self evident truths", and don't depend on any written document, then it follows that people everywhere must enjoy those truths. Yet, we know that a vast majority of human beings do not enjoy either liberty or equality.

Our nation was founded on the assumption that the purpose of government is to protect those liberties.

Now where does equality and liberty come from? Is it the Christian church, as the question in the title implies, or is it from the ideal that the purpose of government is to protect those liberties? If it is from that ideal, then the Constitution is the written declaration of that ideal.
 
A pure democracy is an authoritarian rule by the majority.
Correct..

What we have in the US is not a pure democracy, but a constitutional republic.
Correct, we were (past tense) a Constitutional Republic.

We call it a democracy, I called it that above, but it technically is not a democracy.
Actually, I think it's "technically" more accurate to describe the US as a Democracry than a Constitutional Republic.

So, perhaps I should have said that the Constitution is responsible for equality and liberty.
"We have a Constitution?" - Random Politician

The protection of individual rights is responsible for equality and liberty. You cannot have either without your individual rights. Originally our Constitution did protect our rights but it is no longer adhered to by the ruling class.

But, isn't democracy the basis of our Constitution?

Not sure what you mean here... Yes we elect people democratically but forming a democracy was not the basis of our constitution.
 
If liberty and equality are "self evident truths", and don't depend on any written document, then it follows that people everywhere must enjoy those truths. Yet, we know that a vast majority of human beings do not enjoy either liberty or equality.

Knowing something is not the same thing as enjoying the fruits thereof, is it? If your founding fathers had not won their war of independence, would they have enjoyed the liberty and equality however loudly they shouted about it?

Our nation was founded on the assumption that the purpose of government is to protect those liberties.

Nonsense. They are not assumptions. They are, as your declaration of independence EXPLICITLY state -- self-evident TRUTHS.

Now where does equality and liberty come from?

It comes from the self-evident truth that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL AND POSSESS CERTAIN INALIENABLE RIGHTS -- like life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness.

Take note of the word 'created' as it implies the purposeful will of a creator -- equality and liberty being implicit in the purpose. If men were a random accident, then you couldn't possibly declare them equal, could you?

Is it the Christian church, as the question in the title implies, or is it from the ideal that the purpose of government is to protect those liberties?

Nonsense. The title says 'christianity' not the christian church. Christianity is a religion -- an IDEA.

And natural law, as understood presently, was formulated by the early church fathers WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF CHRISTIAN THOUGHT.

Governments and constitutions become irrelevant to natural law. Natural law is the STANDARD by which one criticizes governments and its laws. In fact, your american revolution was based on the argument that the laws promulgated by the english king were INVALID because they contradicted natural law.

If it is from that ideal, then the Constitution is the written declaration of that ideal.

Again, that ideal, that the state is bound to promote the happiness of its subjects -- whether temporal or spiritual -- was first stated in st augustine's civitates dei.

As the wiki article I posted states, the specifics of natural law becomes defined from the happiness of the subjects -- hence governments are bound to promote happiness -- equality and liberty being synonymous with it.
 
Liberty and equality are functions of the political association and its laws because of NATURAL LAW.

Your founding fathers knew about this when they copied john lockes political theory almost to the letter.

And john locke, talking about 'all men being created equal' as 'self-evident truth' was obviously refering to natural law.

This idea was explicitly stated by thomas aquainas almost a millenium ago in his summa theologica.

And even then, he couldn't even claim full credit for the idea since it was the subject of theological speculation of church fathers in the 4th century.

It is the height of ignorance to over-simplify 'equality and liberty' as a longing for 'elbow room' or some inherent mistrust of government powers.
Would the peoples who break away from established governments and set to eke out a living in a wilderness cite John Lockes political theory? Would they cite Thomas aquainases' summa Theologica? Would they cite "theological speculation of church fathers in the 4th century"? I really do not think so. They would say something simple (they did not have the education to even be aware of those theories), like: "...need more elbow room", then leave the confines of established government to seek prosperity elsewhere. Unless of course they were pompous, over-educated, and had become submissive to the government in which they lived. And of course, they would not have been the ones that left the established rule of government.

"...It is the height of ignorance to over-simplify 'equality and liberty' as a longing for 'elbow room' or some inherent mistrust of government powers..."
I did not say, "mistrust", I said "... no one likes to be told what to do (governments)..." In other words, government control. In the instance of Daniel Boone, his chief means of income was deer skin. The deer skins were made into clothing. The deer skins needed to be harvested "in the red", which means in the warm season (winter hides are too thick and heavy with hair). Which means he had to shoot them "out of season", and without concern for the numbers harvested. If they had already not done so, Pennsylvania and the other colonies would have enacted limits and seasons on the shooting of deer. Those limits and seasons were in direct conflict with his chosen occupation. Therefore, a move to the western frontier. It had little to do with the theories of over-educated papists sitting on their rear ends philosophizing.
 
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Correct, we were (past tense) a Constitutional Republic.

The Constitution is still the supreme law of the land, whether or not you agree with the decisions of teh SCOTUS regarding that Constitution. We are currently still a constitutional republic.

Actually, I think it's "technically" more accurate to describe the US as a Democracry than a Constitutional Republic.
It is not a pure democracy, where the rule of the majority is the law of the land, and never was.

"We have a Constitution?" - Random Politician

Yes, we have a constitution.

The protection of individual rights is responsible for equality and liberty. You cannot have either without your individual rights. Originally our Constitution did protect our rights but it is no longer adhered to by the ruling class.

There, you may have some facts to back you up. There have been some violations of the Constitution, due to the people's unwillingness to pay the price of eternal vigilance. Nevertheless, the Constitution is still there, and is still promoting individual liberty. The recent ruling on gay marriage is an example.

We still do have the so called Patriot Act and asset forfeiture laws in place, to be sure. Eventually, if we insist on it the SCOTUS will strike down those unconstitutional laws.
 
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