Legalizing illegals...

[T3sting]

The government isn't serious about addressing this issue, so in my opinion the best way to deal with illegals already here working is to give them legal residence, and offer guest worker programs for the ones waiting to cross the border, so we can tax that labor, and reduce our labor costs domestically. Your thoughts?

 

[n0spam4me]

How about this one, ENFORCE PRESENT LAW on this subject!
that is anyone who is here ILLEGALY can't get a job, can't rent an apartment, can't have a bank account (etc...) We do NOT want to put out the "welcome mat" for people who choose to violate the law!
So called "CHEAP LABOR" isn't worth it!

The illegals are a burden to the system, more LAW ENFORCEMENT effort, more emergency room time, more food stamps for low wage workers.

NO! and HELL NO! we the people don't pay taxes to provide services for ILLEGALS that is CRIMINALS who choose to violate the LAW.

What part of ILLEGAL do you not understand!

Send every one of them back where they came from and tell them to get in line like everyone else and wait their turn to get in and apply for citizenship LEGALLY!

<fame mode off>
.

 

[Lilly Marlene]

T3sting, nospam is absolutely right about the strain being placed on infrastructure here. It is reaching the limits in some areas, causing hospitals to close from unpaid ER bills, schools to be on probation due to the strain of teaching English as a second language, and so forth.

The only ones profiting from the porous borders are the corporations; they get laborers who won't demand a high wage and can't press for benefits.

We middle and lower middle classes pick up the tab for it.

It is true as you mentioned that the majority of the bought-and-paid-for legislators don't want to do anything about it, and of course neither does North American Union signatory Mr. Bush.
But that doesn't mean that over 85% of the American people have to capitulate...

We have to keep writing to our legislators - making our selves hard to ignore:
*Attrition through Enforcement !*

 

[saggyjones]

The government isn't serious about addressing this issue, so in my opinion the best way to deal with illegals already here working is to give them legal residence, and offer guest worker programs for the ones waiting to cross the border, so we can tax that labor, and reduce our labor costs domestically. Your thoughts?

I agree 100%. We need to legalize the ones here so we can tax them. It's a triple-win: the government gets more money, we don't spend money looking for illegals here now and shipping them back, and they have a good life.

But we also need to tighten border security so more illegals can't cross.

 

[saggyjones]

How about this one, ENFORCE PRESENT LAW on this subject!
that is anyone who is here ILLEGALY can't get a job, can't rent an apartment, can't have a bank account (etc...) We do NOT want to put out the "welcome mat" for people who choose to violate the law!
So called "CHEAP LABOR" isn't worth it!

That's why we need to tighten border security after we make them legal.

The illegals are a burden to the system, more LAW ENFORCEMENT effort, more emergency room time, more food stamps for low wage workers.

If we make them legal, our law enforcement system won't have to look for them. And if we tax them, they can pay for that ER time and food stamps. Also they can get health insurance if they are legal.

NO! and HELL NO! we the people don't pay taxes to provide services for ILLEGALS that is CRIMINALS who choose to violate the LAW.

You didn't really think this one out, did you? If they are legal, they will pay taxes.

What part of ILLEGAL do you not understand!

Send every one of them back where they came from and tell them to get in line like everyone else and wait their turn to get in and apply for citizenship LEGALLY!

Sending them back hasn't really been working, has it? They are straining our system; making them legal alleviates that.

 

[saggyjones]

T3sting, nospam is absolutely right about the strain being placed on infrastructure here. It is reaching the limits in some areas, causing hospitals to close from unpaid ER bills, schools to be on probation due to the strain of teaching English as a second language, and so forth.

If we make the ones here now legal, they can pay taxes and get health insurance like the rest of us.

The only ones profiting from the porous borders are the corporations; they get laborers who won't demand a high wage and can't press for benefits.

We middle and lower middle classes pick up the tab for it.

Again, making them legal stops this.

It is true as you mentioned that the majority of the bought-and-paid-for legislators don't want to do anything about it, and of course neither does North American Union signatory Mr. Bush.
But that doesn't mean that over 85% of the American people have to capitulate...

We have to keep writing to our legislators - making our selves hard to ignore:
*Attrition through Enforcement !*

I agree.

 

[Lilly Marlene]

saggyjones,

Just noticed your posts.

["and get health insurance like the rest of us..."]

I don't even have health insurance



Tens of thousands of employed US citizens do not have it; becoming a legal citizen does not indicate the probability that one will henceforth be able to have health insurance, and even less so if one's skill set and income are low.

A problem with granting legal citizenship in this situation is that it rewards the violation of the law.
As we saw with Reagan's amnesty in 1986, the result is increased breeching of the border afterwards.

But another pragmatic consideration is this: once the people are made citizens of the US, the motivation that existed for hiring them decreases ...
Why?
Because they now have the same rights and recourse as other citizens; thus they are no longer the docile and easily manipulated lot they were previously, which made them desirable to employers of that type.

So there would be a group of 12 to 20 million new - and procreant - 'citizens' who compete directly with the less affluent and less skilled classes of Americans who were there before.

Also worrisome is the fact that illegal entry bypasses the screening for infectious disease and history of violent crime.

I hope to elaborate further on these ideas when it's not so late at night, and clarify some of the things I've written here, if need be.

Have a happy St. Patrick's,
Lilly

 

[saggyjones]

saggyjones,

Just noticed your posts.

["and get health insurance like the rest of us..."]

I don't even have health insurance



Tens of thousands of employed US citizens do not have it; becoming a legal citizen does not indicate the probability that one will henceforth be able to have health insurance, and even less so if one's skill set and income are low.

Actually, it does increase the probability that someone can get health insurance, because they're legal. I'm not saying it guarantees it though.

People who argue that illegals put a strain on health care don't realize that making them legal will allow them to pay taxes and possibly get health insurance. That means that legalizing the ones here now will actually benefit the health care system.

A problem with granting legal citizenship in this situation is that it rewards the violation of the law.
As we saw with Reagan's amnesty in 1986, the result is increased breeching of the border afterwards.

That's why we need to tighten border security. Also, the president would explain why he was legalizing them, and that any new illegals found would be sent back immediately.

But another pragmatic consideration is this: once the people are made citizens of the US, the motivation that existed for hiring them decreases ...
Why?
Because they now have the same rights and recourse as other citizens; thus they are no longer the docile and easily manipulated lot they were previously, which made them desirable to employers of that type.

Exactly. Now those companies are forced to compete which is good for the economy as a whole, and the immigrants are allowed decent lives. Also it allows regular citizens to compete for the jobs, which eliminates the problem of illegals taking our jobs.

So there would be a group of 12 to 20 million new - and procreant - 'citizens' who compete directly with the less affluent and less skilled classes of Americans who were there before.

Exactly. How does this support your argument?

Also worrisome is the fact that illegal entry bypasses the screening for infectious disease and history of violent crime.

Apparently you didn't catch the "ones here now" part. I only support legalizing the illegal immigrants here now; new ones after we crack down on border security should be sent back.

I hope to elaborate further on these ideas when it's not so late at night, and clarify some of the things I've written here, if need be.

Have a happy St. Patrick's,
Lilly

You too.

 

[Lilly Marlene]

Before talking to your last post saggyjones, I'd like to reply to one thing you wrote to nospam.

Sending them back is not working primarily because of the intentional porousness of the border. And we can't kid ourselves ...it IS certainly porous by design.

Now to me, you wrote,

Actually, it does increase the probability that someone can get health insurance, because they're legal. I'm not saying it guarantees it though.

I wrote that it doesn't INDICATE a probability, and I'll stand by that:

A person making $5.15 an hour as a legal US citizen is no more likely to buy health insurance than a person making $5.15 an hour as an illegal immigrant, unless that person is able to get food and a roof over their head for free. It is even less likely if that person is taking care of other people besides themself, which is so often the case with those who have come across the southern border.

People who argue that illegals put a strain on health care don't realize that making them legal will allow them to pay taxes and possibly get health insurance. That means that legalizing the ones here now will actually benefit the health care system.

Just what I live for ...benefits to HMOs !
:/

That's why we need to tighten border security. Also, the president would explain why he was legalizing them, and that any new illegals found would be sent back immediately.

In your prior post you made the argument to nospam that sending them back IS NOT WORKING. Why would it suddenly be workable to do so after another amnesty ?

Exactly. Now those companies are forced to compete which is good for the economy as a whole, and the immigrants are allowed decent lives. Also it allows regular citizens to compete for the jobs, which eliminates the problem of illegals taking our jobs.

This completely ignores the stresses created by flooding the market with low skilled workers, even if they all can command the same wage after the amnesty.

Second, as far as "decent lives", please consider this:

The people who breech the southern border are NOT the poorest people in Mexico, El Salvador, Honduras, and other such places. The poorest cannot afford the trip or to pay the coyotes.
The people who enter the US this way correspond to our lower middle class. This was documented in an extended study which you can access on the CIS website.

Most commonly these people had jobs in their home country and were far from desperate; the lure was irresistible though, of coming here and making $5 an hour vs. 50 cents an hour ...
especially thanks to NAFTA's having upset their entire economy.

Both Dems and Repubs were pro NAFTA at the time (early 1990s) and so were the leaders of Mexico. Do we begin to see a pattern ?

In any case, the picture is of a (relative) lower middle class from a country far wealthier than many other countries, migrating to the US.

The people there who MOST need their lives to be more decent ...are stuck there.

The way to improve things in Latin America is for the people to overthrow their corrupt governments, where many billionaires hoard resources.

If the people of Cuba and Venezuela can do it, then the others can too - and would, if there were not this easy way out by sneaking into the US and then being granted amnesty.

Exactly. How does this support your argument?

As above.

Apparently you didn't catch the "ones here now" part. I only support legalizing the illegal immigrants here now; new ones after we crack down on border security should be sent back.

The "ones here now" have ALSO bypassed screening for infectious disease and history of violent crime -

which probably explains the inflated percentages of violent crime and multi drug resistant TB, Chigas disease, and even leprosy among them - being battled with our tax dollars.

And again I would ask you why you think the "sending back" strategy would suddenly become effective AFTER granting amnesty.

Granting legal citizenship to people who flouted the law is a slap in the face to everyone who waited their turn, filled out papers, underwent the screening and did it the way we stipulated.

You too.

Thanks, it was a fun evening.


There is one more thing I wanted to add on this topic:

You wrote something to a poster above about immigrant farm workers, and how we have to eat and stuff.
Please note that seasonal farm work is addressed under separate legislation and has little to do with the huge numbers of illegal immigrants employed in industries such as slaughterhouses, packing plants, and the like.

 

[saggyjones]

Before talking to your last post saggyjones, I'd like to reply to one thing you wrote to nospam.

Sending them back is not working primarily because of the intentional porousness of the border. And we can't kid ourselves ...it IS certainly porous by design.

That's why we need to crack down on border security.

I wrote that it doesn't INDICATE a probability, and I'll stand by that:

A person making $5.15 an hour as a legal US citizen is no more likely to buy health insurance than a person making $5.15 an hour as an illegal immigrant, unless that person is able to get food and a roof over their head for free. It is even less likely if that person is taking care of other people besides themself, which is so often the case with those who have come across the southern border.

Just what I live for ...benefits to HMO s!
:/

It doesn't raise the cost for hospitals though, so it doesn't change a thing in this case.

In your prior post you made the argument to nospam that sending them back IS NOT WORKING. Why would it suddenly be workable to do so after another amnesty ?

It wouldn't, but we would start patrolling the border very heavily so fewer would get in.

This completely ignores the stresses created by flooding the market with low skilled workers, even if they all can command the same wage after the amnesty.

They are already in the market! Illegals have a very high employment rate because agricultural companies and the like want to hire workers for less than minimum wage.

Second, as far as "decent lives", please consider this:

The people who breech the southern border are NOT the poorest people in Mexico, El Salvador, Honduras, and other such places. The poorest cannot afford the trip or to pay the coyotes.
The people who enter the US this way correspond to our lower middle class. This was documented in an extended study which you can access on the CIS website.

Most commonly these people had jobs in their home country and were far from desperate; the lure was irresistible though, of coming here and making $5 an hour vs. 50 cents an hour ...
especially thanks to NAFTA's having upset their entire economy.

Both Dems and Repubs were pro NAFTA at the time (early 1990s) and so were the leaders of Mexico. Do we begin to see a pattern ?

In any case, the picture is of a (relative) lower middle class from a country far wealthier than many other countries, migrating to the US.

The people there who MOST need their lives to be more decent ...are stuck there.

OK, but they obviously will have a better life here, or why would they come? I never said they were the poorest in Mexico or wherever they came from.

The way to improve things in Latin America is for the people to overthrow their corrupt governments, where many billionaires hoard resources.

If the people of Cuba and Venezuela can do it, then the others can too - and would, if there were not this easy way out by sneaking into the US and then being granted amnesty.

I agree. I'm not just trying to help the immigrants out with this measure, I'm trying to solve a problem in our country.

The "ones here now" have ALSO bypassed screening for infectious disease and history of violent crime -

which probably explains the inflated percentages of violent crime and multi drug resistant TB, Chigas disease, and even leprosy among them - being battled with our tax dollars.

We would screen them again. Not one illegal would refuse the opportunity to become legal; they would all show up for the screening.

And again I would ask you why you think the "sending back" strategy would suddenly become effective AFTER granting amnesty.

Answered above.

Granting legal citizenship to people who flouted the law is a slap in the face to everyone who waited their turn, filled out papers, underwent the screening and did it the way we stipulated.

I agree, but the rewards outweigh the costs in this case.

Thanks, it was a fun evening.

Yeah I love St. Patrick's Day hehe

There is one more thing I wanted to add on this topic:

You wrote something to a poster above about immigrant farm workers, and how we have to eat and stuff.
Please note that seasonal farm work is addressed under separate legislation and has little to do with the huge numbers of illegal immigrants employed in industries such as slaughterhouses, packing plants, and the like.

I am talking about people who work in the fields picking vegetables and similar jobs. That's crucial part of agriculture. Anyway, every job is a part of our economy.