Lets Talk Debt

[cashmcall]

The way I see it the US Constitution forbids the Gov from collections from citizens for the public debt. simply stated citizens have ZERO obligation to gov debt. ZERO. The gov can tax income but it cannot make you pay a dime if you have no income and they cannot collect from you to pay gov debt. ​

So the debt means nothing to me. If the gov defaults tough. I owe them zilch. ​

Debt is an attribute of the Federal Reserve fractional reserve multiplier. It creates debt with each loan and themoney​

supply increases. So the dollars increase in number and thus inflate. ​

What I have suggested is debt free dollars which are not run through the fractional reserve system. Thus, they create NO DEBT. Lincoln Greenbacks are a perfect example, Colonial Script is a perfect examples. ​

This money is controlled by issuance to strict quantity. There is no borrowing fractional reserve system to increase the money supply with loans. Instead interest rates​

are kept low because of competition NOT THE LACK of competition that exists with the federal reserve banks. ​

For example. The Fed rents money to the Gov. They take that money and it creates instant debt to the gov. to the Fed. Then the Fed banks take that charted money and pay the Fed 1% and then loan it out at 5% and for every dollar they hold in reserves, they can loan out 10X the quantity. So you have a 10X multiplier in the money supply and a 4% premium on every loan and A Bond​

to the Fed upon which the Gov pays interest. ​

That is your present system. It has nothing to do with what I think about debt. This system is constructed to create debt. ​

Consider greenbacks issued as people's currency. It is printed in circulation. It could replace debt dollars one for one or it could be a separate currency. It value would not change because the quantity of dollars would never change. Banks could lend greenbacks but they would not get a high interest rate​

but a competitive interest rate set by competition not the FED. And fractional reserve multiplier would not exist so no bank would be set up to which the gov owes debt for every dollar plus interest. ​

There would be no debt to the government to issue greenback. It would simple replace Federal Reserve dollars. ​

Seeing the light doesn't always have to be complicated. Once again, It surprises me that you give me the debt and gold arguments which are supposed to make sense but you never took the time to explore the video I sent you that explains this monopolization so clearly. ​

Here's a the link and hope that you take a look and understand it. This is vintage Milton Friedman thinking and he was the greatest free market economist in history and a true genius. ​

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkq2E8mswI​

​

this is a very well done documentary. ​

You must remember the Fed was installed in 1916 to raise money for a stupid War and they people had no interest in it so they wanted to find a shifty way for liberals to spend money without accounting for it so this fractional reserve multiplier was installed to cheat the public and give the politicians a free hand at spending. ​

Lincoln was trying to finance the Civil war effort and bankers wanted too much interest. So Lincoln printed Green backs as a means to create debt free, interest free money which was used to replace bank printed money. And it worked well. ​

 

[Richard Savage]

Debt is not the problem. Commerce is based on credit; which is the very life’s blood of the economy. It’s nothing new, deficit spending has been done throughout our history. The question is: what to do about it? Precipitating a default on the national debt by failing to act is not a solution. What is needed is to promote economic value over speculation; what is needed is to get the economy back to one based on making things, and not just making deals.

 

[dogtowner]

sounds nice but easier said than done.

why do we not make (some) things here any longer ? we are not competitive. labor for commodity manufacture has to go to the low cost provider as the margins will not tolerate otherwise. we used to be the leader in higher tech manufacture (that goes back to the industrial revolution, not just silicon valley) now not so much.

why ? equal parts lagging education and government tinkering. there is no quick fix to education and we do everything but whats necessary to start to address that. the government tinkering is politically difficult to address as business has come to rely on tricks to make a buck.

so debt really is a problem when you have come up to and gone beyond what is sustainable.

so oddly enough addressing debt with spending discipline helps these problems by removing the many teats government has been offering that have caused our problems.

funny how that works ? not really, the Framers knew this was the natural result of the actions we have taken.

 

[Richard Savage]

It has to do with steel. After WWII, General Douglas McArthur became the last "Shogun" of Japan. The first thing he did was to revitalize Japan's steel industry - which was difficult, because Japan did not have the natural resourses to make steel - but he knew that the country could not survive without steel production, whatever the sourse.

Fast-forward now: America, which was once the steel producer of the world, imports it from Japan. We are now dependent on others for the one thing that made our nation great - steel.

 

[dogtowner]

It has to do with steel. After WWII, General Douglas McArthur became the last "Shogun" of Japan. The first thing he did was to revitalize Japan's steel industry - which was difficult, because Japan did not have the natural resourses to make steel - but he knew that the country could not survive without steel production, whatever the sourse.

Fast-forward now: America, which was once the steel producer of the world, imports it from Japan. We are now dependent on others for the one thing that made our nation great - steel.

an excellent example of my point. we were a leading producer back in the day because of natural resources. we have also been recreating our steel industry making sorts of steel the others cannot.

most steel used is commodity in nature (low tech) and subject to margin pressures.

 

[Richard Savage]

Without the capacity to produce our own steel, we will be a dependent nation - and not a world leader.

 

[dogtowner]

Without the capacity to produce our own steel, we will be a dependent nation - and not a world leader.

we do have the capacity and do manufacture quite a lot of it but only a fool will pay more than necessary and we can't make ordinary steel at a competitive price.

 

[Cruella]

Anyone been to the grocery store lately or bought a pair of jeans?

Incomes are not increasing with the cost of living. The less disposable income people have, the more businesses will shut down and the worse our unemployemnt will be.

 

[dogtowner]

Anyone been to the grocery store lately or bought a pair of jeans?

Incomes are not increasing with the cost of living. The less disposable income people have, the more businesses will shut down and the worse our unemployemnt will be.

there were great worries about the price of cotton a while back. I get jeans at Sams and they are much the same but thats not a good example. I definitely see it at the grocery store.

 

[GenSeneca]

Richard seems to be confusing the trade deficit (private sector) with our national debt (public sector) in coming to the conclusion that we need to return to a manufacturing based economy to deal with the overspending in Washington.

As for promoting economic value, that is something we desperately need. Producing our own steel at prices higher than what it would cost to import that steel does not add economic value, it subtracts it.

 

[dogtowner]

Richard seems to be confusing the trade deficit (private sector) with our national debt (public sector) in coming to the conclusion that we need to return to a manufacturing based economy to deal with the overspending in Washington.

As for promoting economic value, that is something we desperately need. Producing our own steel at prices higher than what it would cost to import that steel does not add economic value, it subtracts it.

exactly. what made this country great was natural resources, being ahead of the curve on the "next big thing" and an environment that promoted enterprise. we still have the resources but government makes it hard to get them, tax law makes it harder to dream up the next big thing while government also chooses to say what that must be, the business climate has become quite hostile and the industrious have been taxed to death or made into dependent lumps.

 

[Richard Savage]

No. Importing steel makes us a dependent nation. The same is true with oil. If energy independence is so important to our national interests, then why are we exporting oil to Europe and Japan, and importing oil from the Middle East for domestic consumption? Are oil company profits more important than our national interests?

 

[dogtowner]

No. Importing steel makes us a dependent nation. The same is true with oil. If energy independence is so important to our national interests, then why are we exporting oil to Europe and Japan, and importing oil from the Middle East for domestic consumption? Are oil company profits more important than our national interests?

we also import from and export to Canada. several reasons why not the least of which are logistics and oil quality. and we are not dependant if we CAN make our own steel. but as it stands now, we are not permitted to replace the ME's supply of oil. they know it and so are disimclined to see prices drop.

 

[Richard Savage]

Answer the question: Are oil company profits more important that our national interests?

 

[dogtowner]

Answer the question: Are oil company profits more important that our national interests?

why ? its a meaningless question as the two are not at odds. moreover our national interests are serves by profitable commerce. even Obama knows that exports are beneficial.