Maybe Obama IS bringing the races together

[WolfLarsen]

All of the above arguments show that capitalism has outlived its useful purpose. The American bourgeoisie used to invest in factories back in the 19th century and the early part of the 20th century. However, now the American bourgeoisie prefers to use their money on speculation, such as derivatives and junk bonds.

Under capitalism the bourgeoisie will always try to drive down the price of labor. What's the answer to this? Get rid of capitalism! The workers produce the wealth, so the workers should rule!

I remember when I was a longshoreman throwing 44 pound (20 K) boxes of frozen fish in rows above our heads in the cargo hold of the ship (three men per hour per minimum). Our boss charged roughly 5 to 6 times what he paid us. He had few expenses. He was always complaining about "overpriced" union labor! He slept while we worked!

 

[PLC1]

All of the above arguments show that capitalism has outlived its useful purpose. The American bourgeoisie used to invest in factories back in the 19th century and the early part of the 20th century. However, now the American bourgeoisie prefers to use their money on speculation, such as derivatives and junk bonds.

Under capitalism the bourgeoisie will always try to drive down the price of labor. What's the answer to this? Get rid of capitalism! The workers produce the wealth, so the workers should rule!

I remember when I was a longshoreman throwing 44 pound (20 K) boxes of frozen fish in rows above our heads in the cargo hold of the ship (three men per hour per minimum). Our boss charged roughly 5 to 6 times what he paid us. He had few expenses. He was always complaining about "overpriced" union labor! He slept while we worked!

Sure, let's get rid of capitalism and see how much those longshoremen are able to make then. Can you name one socialist nation that isn't a failed state?

Real socialism, I mean, not just someone's revised definition of the term, the means of production actually run by the government.

 

[WolfLarsen]

Sure, let's get rid of capitalism and see how much those longshoremen are able to make then. Can you name one socialist nation that isn't a failed state?

Russia is virtually a failed state because it reverted back to capitalism. Under a planned economy the Soviet Union was one of the most industrialized and powerful nations of the world. The people all had the right to a job, they had a decent standard of living, they had free medical care, they had the right to decent housing, they had the right to free child care, etc – all thanks to the planned economy.

The breakup of the Soviet Union however resulted in severely diminished living standards for the workers. In addition, the breakup of the Soviet Union and the reintroduction of capitalism turned workers against each other by nationality. It was even worse in Yugoslavia.

However, the Soviet Union was run by a terrible Stalinist bureaucracy. What is necessary is an interracial workers democracy instead,something like what Lenin and Trotsky had in mind.

Regarding somebody else's statement that they do not realize that unions help to unite workers across racial lines I tell you it is true that unions unite workers. The union which represented me for 10 years (ILWU) integrated the waterfront back in the 1930s. Before the formation of the ILWU working conditions were segregated , but after the ILWU came into existence the docks became integrated. Strong powerful industrial unions united black and white workers in blue-collar jobs across the country.

It is only through the unity of black, white, and Latino workers that the American worker will triumph over the obstacles he faces today.

 

[Pandora]

Russia is virtually a failed state because it reverted back to capitalism. Under a planned economy the Soviet Union was one of the most industrialized and powerful nations of the world.

. Had you ever been to Russia while under the Soviet Union? Or did you know anyone who lived in Russia at that time? I do and even the devout communists agree they were better off after the collapse. A few that I know said they did not do as well because before they had jobs they were assigned to and you were assigned to your job based on who you knew and your loyalty to the SU After the fall you just had to find a job. Housing was the same. Those who were in good with the government had better housing than those who were not, after the fall the one who looked hardest and got lucky got the better housing

The people all had the right to a job, they had a decent standard of living, they had free medical care, they had the right to decent housing, they had the right to free child care, etc – all thanks to the planned economy.

The people were assigned jobs and you got a really crappy job if you were not liked or had connections. It was the same with housing. Nothing, NOTHING was gained on ones hard work and ethics but instead on ones connections.



I don’t think anyone misses the bread lines either, or the shoe lines or Jeans lines or toilet paper lines. And the only ones who consider going back to that lifestyle are the ones who had connections to get the better jobs and housing without having to actually work for it.

 

[PLC1]

Still waiting for that socialist nation that isn't a failed state. Which one is the bright, shining example? Cuba? NK? Is Venezuela now on the road to becoming a prosperous nation?

 

[dogtowner]

Still waiting for that socialist nation that isn't a failed state. Which one is the bright, shining example? Cuba? NK? Is Venezuela now on the road to becoming a prosperous nation?

please tell me you are not holding your breath.

 

[BigRob]

All of the above arguments show that capitalism has outlived its useful purpose. The American bourgeoisie used to invest in factories back in the 19th century and the early part of the 20th century. However, now the American bourgeoisie prefers to use their money on speculation, such as derivatives and junk bonds.

The majority of well educated people in this country would be unable to explain what a financial derivative is -- let alone how it works.

Under capitalism the bourgeoisie will always try to drive down the price of labor. What's the answer to this? Get rid of capitalism! The workers produce the wealth, so the workers should rule!

What is wrong with driving down production costs and being more efficient?

I remember when I was a longshoreman throwing 44 pound (20 K) boxes of frozen fish in rows above our heads in the cargo hold of the ship (three men per hour per minimum). Our boss charged roughly 5 to 6 times what he paid us. He had few expenses. He was always complaining about "overpriced" union labor! He slept while we worked!

I would bet you had no idea what kind of expenses your boss had or what margin he was operating on.

 

[WolfLarsen]

Going back to the issue of racial unity: look at what happened in Yugoslavia when capitalism was introduced there. The result was widespread civil bloodshed. Many people died.

American capitalism has always divided workers against each other by national origin, religion, and race. Thus the capitalists divide and conquer the workers.


Someone asked me if I'd ever known anybody who lived in a communist country. Nobody has ever lived in a communist country. Nobody's has lived in a socialist country. To understand what socialism and communism is I suggest you read Frederick Engels Socialism: Utopian and Scientific.

Anti-Communists like to talk about the rotten Stalinist dictatorships. But of course the capitalist world has had its share of rotten dictatorships too. In fact, in the USA we have fewer rights every day: the Patriot Act, the war on drugs, and the Republican Congress just passed and the Democratic president just signed legislation giving the military the right to indefinitely detain Americans without a trial.

As a Trotskyist I call for political revolutions by the working class to oust the Stalinist bureaucracies. However, I certainly defend the planned economy as being superior to a capitalist one. And one of the reasons for this is based on my conversations with people who have lived in countries with a planned economy and returned to these countries after they became capitalist. These people were originally very anti-Communist usually, but then after seeing the widespread poverty caused by the reintroduction of capitalism these people changed their minds and decided that capitalism was by far the greater evil. I have seen firsthand the widespread poverty caused by capitalism in my travels to over 50 countries across the world. I have been to Eastern Europe, China, and Vietnam as well.

Frankly, I feel it is important that people should have the right to a job. Under socialism everyone has the right to a job. Unless you are going to school, disabled, or a senior citizen under socialism you get a job or starve. I do not believe that the working class should have to support a parasitic bourgeoisie that does not wish to work but instead wants to live off the labor of others.

Black, white, brown, yellow, or red all workers should unite! For political revolutions by the working class in the Stalinist countries and workers revolutions in the capitalist countries. For WORKERS democracy across the world!

 

[WolfLarsen]

I remember when I was a longshoreman throwing 44 pound (20 K) boxes of frozen fish in rows above our heads in the cargo hold of the ship (three men per hour per minimum). Our boss charged roughly 5 to 6 times what he paid us. He had few expenses. He was always complaining about "overpriced" union labor! He slept while we worked!​

I would bet you had no idea what kind of expenses your boss had or what margin he was operating on.

He had a secretary, an accountant, and a small office. He also had insurance expenses as the job was quite dangerous.

He was a millionaire within two years.

 

[dogtowner]

Going back to the issue of racial unity: look at what happened in Yugoslavia when capitalism was introduced there. The result was widespread civil bloodshed. Many people died.

American capitalism has always divided workers against each other by national origin, religion, and race. Thus the capitalists divide and conquer the workers.


Someone asked me if I'd ever known anybody who lived in a communist country. Nobody has ever lived in a communist country. Nobody's has lived in a socialist country. To understand what socialism and communism is I suggest you read Frederick Engels Socialism: Utopian and Scientific.

Anti-Communists like to talk about the rotten Stalinist dictatorships. But of course the capitalist world has had its share of rotten dictatorships too. In fact, in the USA we have fewer rights every day: the Patriot Act, the war on drugs, and the Republican Congress just passed and the Democratic president just signed legislation giving the military the right to indefinitely detain Americans without a trial.

As a Trotskyist I call for political revolutions by the working class to oust the Stalinist bureaucracies. However, I certainly defend the planned economy as being superior to a capitalist one. And one of the reasons for this is based on my conversations with people who have lived in countries with a planned economy and returned to these countries after they became capitalist. These people were originally very anti-Communist usually, but then after seeing the widespread poverty caused by the reintroduction of capitalism these people changed their minds and decided that capitalism was by far the greater evil. I have seen firsthand the widespread poverty caused by capitalism in my travels to over 50 countries across the world. I have been to Eastern Europe, China, and Vietnam as well.

Frankly, I feel it is important that people should have the right to a job. Under socialism everyone has the right to a job. Unless you are going to school, disabled, or a senior citizen under socialism you get a job or starve. I do not believe that the working class should have to support a parasitic bourgeoisie that does not wish to work but instead wants to live off the labor of others.

Black, white, brown, yellow, or red all workers should unite! For political revolutions by the working class in the Stalinist countries and workers revolutions in the capitalist countries. For WORKERS democracy across the world!

the trouble was the heavy hand of Tito allowed the longstanding animosity of the "sides" there to be unleashed and the feud to resume in force. had nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with totalitarianism. funny how islamic states have very heavy hands.

 

[BigRob]

He had a secretary, an accountant, and a small office. He also had insurance expenses as the job was quite dangerous.

He was a millionaire within two years.

From this -- is reaffirms that you had no idea what his expenses or margins were.

 

[WolfLarsen]

the trouble was the heavy hand of Tito allowed the longstanding animosity of the "sides" there to be unleashed and the feud to resume in force. had nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with totalitarianism. funny how islamic states have very heavy hands.

There are endless examples of capitalist nations with despotic regimes where racial oppression and violence was common. The most gruesome example of a capitalist regime which engaged in violence against a group of people was the capitalist Nazi regime of the Third Reich. Certainly, there was lots of violence between different groups of people during the reign of the capitalist Third Reich.

 

[WolfLarsen]

From this -- is reaffirms that you had no idea what his expenses or margins were.

I was there, you were not. We worked while the boss slept.

From what I get from this and other comments from people who are pro-capitalists is that they feel workers should not prosper from the wealth that they create. According to the pro-capitalists only the capitalists should profit from the wealth created in a capitalist society.

From this I can only conclude that there is the workers on one side, and the capitalists on the other. You are on one side or you are on the other. The capitalists are parasites, just like 19th century French royalty.

 

[dogtowner]

There are endless examples of capitalist nations with despotic regimes where racial oppression and violence was common. The most gruesome example of a capitalist regime which engaged in violence against a group of people was the capitalist Nazi regime of the Third Reich. Certainly, there was lots of violence between different groups of people during the reign of the capitalist Third Reich.

the violence was from the Nazis against various groups principally Jews. A little resistance was in effect but not much in comparison.

 

[dogtowner]

I was there, you were not. We worked while the boss slept.

From what I get from this and other comments from people who are pro-capitalists is that they feel workers should not prosper from the wealth that they create. According to the pro-capitalists only the capitalists should profit from the wealth created in a capitalist society.

From this I can only conclude that there is the workers on one side, and the capitalists on the other. You are on one side or you are on the other. The capitalists are parasites, just like 19th century French royalty.

You traded your time and effort for money, There is your profit. It is immaterial what your supervisor did because his main goal was to obtain labor. There are only sides if you view it as a competition as opposed to a mutually beneficial arrangement.