Obama warns auto companies.

Well, I watched all those videos and see an awful lot of manipulation going on. Personally, I'm all for large amounts of regulation but I see almost all senators and representatives as being against it--it's just that different ones want different things deregulated in order to get votes.

But lemme' drop a little quote from Kenneth Boulding*:

"Anyone who believes that exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist."

The inevitable result of an entire population growing way too big for their breaches has historically been proven time and time again to be: war, famine and pestilence.


*might be partly paraphrased--don't know the exact source
 
Werbung:
Hey neo-myster... IT WAS THE REPUBLICANS THAT HAD THE TOTAL CONTROL FOR SIX STRAIGHT YEARS! IT WAS THEY WHO WOULD BE BRINGING THINGS FORWARD BECAUSE THEY COULD PASS THEM IF THEY WANTED CHANGE.


So let me get this straight... your sad, pathetic, worthless, useless democrats could not even SUBMIT a bill to fix everything? As in, they were so completely incompetent, they didn't even have the ability to write the bill, let alone debate it, let alone try and pass it? Yet you are positive they had all the "fix its" in their pocket?

And yet, this contradicts your prior statement. In post #30, you claimed:

The fact is the Republicans in Congress have perfected their Party into the OBSTRUCTIONIST PARTY.

It takes not 51 votes but 60 votes to break a Republican (The Obstructionist Party) filibuster and vote... so legislation can be sent up.

Even after that (if some in the Obstructionist Party did break off and allow a vote) then the Republican (Obstructionist) President vetoes (rejects) it and sends it back to Congress where they then would need 66 votes to override that Obstruction.

Now, you claim that there was nothing to obstruct, there was nothing to filibuster, there was nothing to veto, and no veto to override.

So which is it Top Gun? Did the democrats have all the answers and the republicans stopped them, or did the democrats not even write any bills?

Here, let me help you out. Not only did the democrats write bills, debate bills, pass bills, but they also passed a bill over a presidential veto. However, unlike your claim they had answers to all our problems, the bill they passed was H.R.6124, also known as, the Farm Bill.

The Farm bill spent $288 Billion (who is to blame for deficits?), allowed for more funding of bad technologies like Ethanol, is opposed by WTO, Cato Institute, Union of Concerned Scientists, Center for Rural Affairs, Oxfam America, and was opposed by GWB, because it allowed subsidies for people making $750K a year. How amazing that now the democrats support subsidies for the rich, while GWB, a republican is against it.

John McCain himself even during this last campaign was running all over the place pushing the total deregulation of the healthcare industry and other sectors.:eek:

If he had been, I would have been more inclined to vote for him.
 
Andy;79675]So let me get this straight... your sad, pathetic, worthless, useless democrats could not even SUBMIT a bill to fix everything? As in, they were so completely incompetent, they didn't even have the ability to write the bill, let alone debate it, let alone try and pass it? Yet you are positive they had all the "fix its" in their pocket?

NOOOOOOOOOO!:D I'm saying let's honestly remember the Nazi days of total Republican control. The Democrats had been beating their heads against a brick wall as far back as Herr Gingrich. There comes a point when a Party in that much control almost has to self implode (which not surprisingly as poor as their policies were is EXACTLY what happened).

And I never said that the Dems had a fix for everything in their pocket. I said that The Republicans were the ones forcing through deregulation policies every chance they got... which is absolutely the truth.



And yet, this contradicts your prior statement. In post #30, you claimed:


Now, you claim that there was nothing to obstruct, there was nothing to filibuster, there was nothing to veto, and no veto to override.

So which is it Top Gun? Did the democrats have all the answers and the republicans stopped them, or did the democrats not even write any bills?

There were Bills introduced regarding various legislation that were vetoed as part of the Republican's overall OBSTRUCTIONIST tactics. These tactics became clear to everyone... except you I guess.:)

The President didn't have to actually veto many Bills (I believe as of Dec. 08 it was 12). He was able to do this because with the Republican controlled Congress he could just send the signal down, "I WILL VETO THAT IF SENT UP". Anyone that could do simple math could see the folly of wasting time in this manor.

And you may well get a taste of EXACTLY what that's like when the tables are turned and there's a Democratic President & Congress in just a few short days... THANK GOD!:D

And as to the second part of the REPUBLICAN OBSTRUCTIONIST PARTY tactic of the filibuster... so legislation could never even go to a vote.

I'll be more than glad print one of the many articles in the press documenting that pattern... and this particular was way back in 2007.

Subverting Majority Rule
Robert Borosage

September 20th, 2007

The Republican obstruction campaign continues. Yesterday, the Republican minority in the Senate filibustered and blocked two measures that had majority support in the House, and bipartisan majority support in the Senate. Republicans continue to filibuster at a pace three times anything ever seen before, in a systematic effort to block popular reforms.

Fifty-six Senators, including six Republicans, supported the resolution offered by Sen. James Webb, D-Va., and Sen. Chuck Hagel, R-Neb., to guarantee the soldiers fighting in Iraq adequate home rotations. This sensible bill – vital to the mental health and readiness of the soldiers on the front line – was blocked because the remaining Republican senators lined up with their leadership to filibuster it.

Similarly, 56 Senators, including six Republicans, supported the legislation introduced by Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., and Sen. Arlen Spector, R-Pa., to restore the fundamental right of court review for those detained under suspicion of terrorism. Once more the will of the bipartisan majority was subverted by the filibuster strategy of a partisan minority.

Republicans are filibustering so many bills that the press has begun to cover this extreme tactic as business as usual. The front-page Washington Post story covering the Webb proposal is headlined “Senate bill short of sixty votes needed.” The article says the proposal “failed on a 56 to 44 vote, with 60 votes needed for passage.” The article never tells the reader that the reason majority rule was frustrated was because of a Republican filibuster that requires 60 votes to overcome.
 

The MoveOn.org Political Action ad blames a banking deregulation bill sponsored by former Sen. Phil Gramm, a friend and one-time adviser to McCain's campaign. It claims the bill "stripped safeguards that would have protected us."

That claim is bunk. When we contacted MoveOn.org spokesman Trevor Fitzgibbons to ask just what "safeguards" the ad was talking about, he came up with not one single example. The only support offered for the ad's claim is one line in one newspaper article that reported the bill "is now being blamed" for the crisis, without saying who is doing the blaming or on what grounds.

The bill in question is the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which was passed in 1999 and repealed portions of the Glass-Steagall Act, a piece of legislation from the era of the Great Depression that imposed a number of regulations on financial institutions. It's true that Gramm authored the act, but what became law was a widely accepted bipartisan compromise. The measure passed the House 362 - 57, with 155 Democrats voting for the bill. The Senate passed the bill by a vote of 90 - 8. Among the Democrats voting for the bill: Obama's running mate, Joe Biden. The bill was signed into law by President Clinton, a Democrat. If this bill really had "stripped the safeguards that would have protected us," then both parties share the blame, not just "John McCain's friend."

The truth is, however, the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act had little if anything to do with the current crisis. In fact, economists on both sides of the political spectrum have suggested that the act has probably made the crisis less severe than it might otherwise have been.

Last year the liberal writer Robert Kuttner, in a piece in The American Prospect, argued that "this old-fashioned panic is a child of deregulation." But even he didn't lay the blame primarily on Gramm-Leach-Bliley. Instead, he described "serial bouts of financial deregulation" going back to the 1970s. And he laid blame on policies of the Federal Reserve Board under Alan Greenspan, saying "the Fed has become the chief enabler of a dangerously speculative economy."

What Gramm-Leach-Bliley did was to allow commercial banks to get into investment banking. Commercial banks are the type that accept deposits and make loans such as mortgages; investment banks accept money for investment into stocks and commodities. In 1998, regulators had allowed Citicorp, a commercial bank, to acquire Traveler's Group, an insurance company that was partly involved in investment banking, to form Citigroup. That was seen as a signal that Glass-Steagall was a dead letter as a practical matter, and Gramm-Leach-Bliley made its repeal formal. But it had little to do with mortgages.

Actually, deregulated banks were not the major culprits in the current debacle. Bank of America, Citigroup, Wells Fargo and J.P. Morgan Chase have weathered the financial crisis in reasonably good shape, while Bear Stearns collapsed and Lehman Brothers has entered bankruptcy, to name but two of the investment banks which had remained independent despite the repeal of Glass-Steagall.

Observers as diverse as former Clinton Treasury official and current Berkeley economist Brad DeLong and George Mason University's Tyler Cowen, a libertarian, have praised Gramm-Leach-Bliley has having softened the crisis. The deregulation allowed Bank of America and J.P. Morgan Chase to acquire Merrill Lynch and Bear Stearns. And Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley have now converted themselves into unified banks to better ride out the storm. That idea is also endorsed by former President Clinton himself, who, in an interview with Maria Bartiromo published in the Sept. 24 issue of Business Week, said he had no regrets about signing the repeal of Glass-Steagall:

Bill Clinton (Sept. 24): Indeed, one of the things that has helped stabilize the current situation as much as it has is the purchase of Merrill Lynch by Bank of America, which was much smoother than it would have been if I hadn't signed that bill. ...You know, Phil Gramm and I disagreed on a lot of things, but he can't possibly be wrong about everything. On the Glass-Steagall thing, like I said, if you could demonstrate to me that it was a mistake, I'd be glad to look at the evidence. But I can't blame [the Republicans]. This wasn't something they forced me into.


The McCain-Palin campaign fired back with an ad laying blame on Democrats and Obama. Titled "Rein," it highlights McCain's 2006 attempt to "rein in Fannie and Freddie." The ad accurately quotes the Washington Post as saying "Washington failed to rein in" the two government-sponsored entities, the Federal National Mortgage Association ("Fannie Mae") and the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation ("Freddie Mac"), both of which ran into trouble by underwriting too many risky home mortgages to buyers who have been unable to repay them. The ad then blames Democrats for blocking McCain's reforms. As evidence, it even offers a snippet of an interview in which former President Clinton agrees that "the responsibility that the Democrats have" might lie in resisting his own efforts to "tighten up a little on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." We're then told that the crisis "didn't have to happen."

It's true that key Democrats opposed the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005, which would have established a single, independent regulatory body with jurisdiction over Fannie and Freddie – a move that the Government Accountability Office had recommended in a 2004 report. Current House Banking Committee chairman Rep. Barney Frank of Massachusetts opposed legislation to reorganize oversight in 2000 (when Clinton was still president), 2003 and 2004, saying of the 2000 legislation that concern about Fannie and Freddie was "overblown." Just last summer, Senate Banking Committee chairman Chris Dodd called a Bush proposal for an independent agency to regulate the two entities "ill-advised."

But saying that Democrats killed the 2005 bill "while Mr. Obama was notably silent" oversimplifies things considerably. The bill made it out of committee in the Senate but was never brought up for consideration. At that time, Republicans had a majority in the Senate and controlled the agenda. Democrats never got the chance to vote against it or to mount a filibuster to block it.

By the time McCain signed on to the legislation, it was too late to prevent the crisis anyway. McCain added his name on May 25, 2006, when the housing bubble had already nearly peaked. Standard & Poor's Case-Schiller Home Price Index, which measures residential housing prices in 20 metropolitan regions and then constructs a composite index for the entire United States, shows that housing prices began falling in July 2006, barely two months later.


So who is to blame? There's plenty of blame to go around, and it doesn't fasten only on one party or even mainly on what Washington did or didn't do. As The Economist magazine noted recently, the problem is one of "layered irresponsibility ... with hard-working homeowners and billionaire villains each playing a role." Here's a partial list of those alleged to be at fault:

* The Federal Reserve, which slashed interest rates after the dot-com bubble burst, making credit cheap.

* Home buyers, who took advantage of easy credit to bid up the prices of homes excessively.

* Congress, which continues to support a mortgage tax deduction that gives consumers a tax incentive to buy more expensive houses.

* Real estate agents, most of whom work for the sellers rather than the buyers and who earned higher commissions from selling more expensive homes.

* The Clinton administration, which pushed for less stringent credit and downpayment requirements for working- and middle-class families.

* Mortgage brokers, who offered less-credit-worthy home buyers subprime, adjustable rate loans with low initial payments, but exploding interest rates.

* Former Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan, who in 2004, near the peak of the housing bubble, encouraged Americans to take out adjustable rate mortgages.

* Wall Street firms, who paid too little attention to the quality of the risky loans that they bundled into Mortgage Backed Securities (MBS), and issued bonds using those securities as collateral.

* The Bush administration, which failed to provide needed government oversight of the increasingly dicey mortgage-backed securities market.

* An obscure accounting rule called mark-to-market, which can have the paradoxical result of making assets be worth less on paper than they are in reality during times of panic.

* Collective delusion, or a belief on the part of all parties that home prices would keep rising forever, no matter how high or how fast they had already gone up.

The U.S. economy is enormously complicated. Screwing it up takes a great deal of cooperation. Claiming that a single piece of legislation was responsible for (or could have averted) the crisis is just political grandstanding. We have no advice to offer on how best to solve the financial crisis. But these sorts of partisan caricatures can only make the task more difficult.
 
NOOOOOOOOOO!:D I'm saying let's honestly remember the Nazi days of total Republican control.

.......

And you may well get a taste of EXACTLY what that's like when the tables are turned and there's a Democratic President & Congress in just a few short days... THANK GOD!:D



So, you're not worried about total Democratic control being just as bad as total Republican control?
 
GenSeneca;79679]
The MoveOn.org Political Action ad blames a banking deregulation bill sponsored by former Sen. Phil Gramm, a friend and one-time adviser to McCain's campaign. It claims the bill "stripped safeguards that would have protected us."

FIRST: It wasn't ONLY that.

SECOND: Even top economists like Greenspan that helped implement Republican policies now freely admit Republican policies were greatly to blame.
 
So, you're not worried about total Democratic control being just as bad as total Republican control?

I'm not worried about it being as bad for several major reasons.

ONE: I think they really disliked having so little power for so long that they will give a much greater effort to do a better job and maintain their control for a while.

SECONDLY: I think their leader President Obama is a genuinely good and extremely intelligent person. A lot trickles down from the top good or bad as we've seen with the bad of a Bush/Cheney administration.

THIRD: While there's no doubt we've been left in just terrible shape the good side of that is even very moderate improvement looks a lot better than the steady down swing we've been on. This leads to greater consumer confidence and also helps in other ways.

Forth: I think the overall mindset of focusing on the middle class is a good mindset. That along with a serious look at how we can make heathcare more affordable are very important long term.

We can do better than what we have the last 8 years I'm absolutely positive of that. We just need to come together as a nation a little and work together. We have the right President at the right time for that job... I really believe that!
 
FIRST: It wasn't ONLY that.

SECOND: Even top economists like Greenspan that helped implement Republican policies now freely admit Republican policies were greatly to blame.

Spoken like a true partisan hack Democrat cheerleader...

Let me get this straight... You claim, despite FactCheck.org stating otherwise, that Democrats have ZERO culpability in the financial meltdown?

And as for Alan Greenspan... He was also responsible for the meltdown, so its no surprise that he would try to shift blame from himself by blaming republican policy. Doing so gives him cover from partisan hacks like yourself and the Democrat party, who are all very eager to shift blame. Greenspan has outed himself as a partisan hack by trying to excuse himself, and the Clinton administration, from any culpability in the financial meltdown.

No matter how much you wish it weren't true, both parties worked together to bring us the meltdown... both pulling in the wrong direction to satisfy their special interests for political gain. Absolving Democrats of all responsibility will only make the problems worse.
 
I posted Keating because that was a situation in John McCain's home state and it was a Savings & Loan SCANDAL. The Dems in that scandal get no pass by me. But the highly DOCUMENTED OVERALL DEREGULATION push was undeniably a Republican maneuver.

Yeah sure you don't. I don't remember any posts by you condemning John Glen, or the other yahoos. As for McCain, I never liked the guy. He's a democrat with a republican name badge. I told everyone the moment he won the primary, it was two democrats running against each other for president. You pointing out scummy things in McCains past, to me is just another democrat scandal.

As for deregulation, the scandal would have happened regardless of the deregulation. If you can prove otherwise, be my guest. Try and be more factual than your other lame assertions.

Here, let me help you out. Deregulation had nothing to do with it. How do I know? Because if it had been deregulated, there would not have been a scandal at all. The scandal involved Lincoln Savings and Loan, who's CEO Charles H. Keating, had given $1.3 Million to the Keating Five, the five senators listed prior.

In 1985, the questionable activities of Lincoln Savings and Loan, caught the attention of the Federal Home Loan Bank Board, which planned to take action against the company. Then Keating called on his five supporters to back off the dogs, and they did.

If there had been deregulation, then what was the FHLBB doing, and on what grounds would it have taken action against the company? If the rules regulating Lincoln S&L had been removed, there would have been no investigation into the company, and nothing to take action against.

Further there would have been no reason for the Keating Five to pressure FHLBB to not investigate Lincoln S&L.

In other words, deregulation had nothing to do with this scandal. It was the very fact there were regulations that Lincoln S&L was violating the required the need to have senators stop the investigation. Who needs to pay $1.3 Million to avoid regulations, that you claim were deregulated and thus no longer exist? That's the facts.

The fact is that only something like 12% of the bad paper on mortgages was do to low income lending. The other 78% had nothing to do with qualification standards at all. And the fact also is that it was seen at the time on both sides of the isle as a good thing to open up the housing market on that's small 12% to help create neighborhood ownership especially in distressed areas.

Regular prime rate mortgages are not failing. It might have been seen as a good thing by some idiots somewhere, but that doesn't change the result.

That's because you are running away to your own conclusion and thus leaving out building blocks of the problem.


I'm running to the conclusion the evidence suggests. If you have new evidence, by all means.

When the banking industry is more broken up (as in not as much a monopoly) and when there is more oversight (regulation) there are less serious hits and when the hits come they are more spread out. Simply put banks that follow tougher standards and/or choose to employee tougher standards don't take all of the hard hits nearly as much.

What happens when the authority for oversight is the very thing pushing sub-prime loans? That is exactly what happened.
toon100108.gif


The banks that followed the "tougher standards" of giving subprime loans "to help create neighborhood ownership especially in distressed areas." as you said, that are the ones which failed. Bear Sterns, was the first to follow the CRA's mandate of subprime loans purchased from Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae "under the outstanding leadership of Frank Raines" Obama's economic advisor, which was the first to crash.

That said, you claim that if the banking industry is more broken up, that this is a good thing. Yet I just detailed the evidence that those banks that are not broken up, are the ones doing well. The evidence contradicts everything you said. Repeating a lie, does not make it true.

It's true that the housing market dropped and that helped trigger a problem. But the safeguards for if that happens had been removed and that was a very bad thing indeed. Plus... Wall Street was completely off the hook with plain old greed. It was a perfect storm scenario.

Name the safeguard that was removed. You can't claim a ban on one bank owning another, as the safeguard because it had nothing to do with sub-prime loans, which are the cause of the problem.


Again, we have already look at this issue. The CRA pushed for subprime loans, and saying that more regulation would help, when it was regulation that pushed for the subprime loans, is a scary case of stupidity.

Another claim that doesn't make sense is the claim by the clearly bias MSNBC political hack, is that Alan Greenspan said that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were not to blame. Watch the video, he never said that. He only said that Fannie and Freddie were not the sole cause. Well great, I'll even buy that. That doesn't change the fact that Fannie and Freddie, through the pressure of the HUD from the CRA, pushed for subprime loans, and banks did as they were pushed to do.

What is even more ironic, is that if you watch the video I posted, it was the republicans pushing for regulation, and the democrats opposing it. And who was getting lobby money from Fannie and Freddie? The democrats.

And by the way, my video is not an opinion clip from a clearly biased source. You can tell that lady was biased because McCain spent hours talking about corrupt greedy wall street. Yet she claims he did not, and spent most of his time attack Fannie and Freddie.
 
FIRST: It wasn't ONLY that.

SECOND: Even top economists like Greenspan that helped implement Republican policies now freely admit Republican policies were greatly to blame.

That is not what he said. Not even remotely what he said.
 
Well, I watched all those videos and see an awful lot of manipulation going on. Personally, I'm all for large amounts of regulation but I see almost all senators and representatives as being against it--it's just that different ones want different things deregulated in order to get votes.

Did you watch my video? In that video, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, were both "regulated". FHEO, in the video on post #42, brought up the violations of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. The democrats, who received money from both, derailed the entire investigation.

My point here isn't democrats are bad, or that republicans are good. Let's move past the partisanship.

My point here is, do regulations really solve anything? It was regulations that allowed HUD to push Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to purchase subprime loans. It was regulation that allowed the Community Reinvestment Act to push banks to make bad loans to minorities. It was regulation that push Mark-to-Market on wall street that caused the stock market to crumble. It was regulation that forced Ethanol on everyone. It was regulation that prevented drilling for oil that forces us to import from all over the world.

Regulation does not have a good track record.

But lemme' drop a little quote from Kenneth Boulding*:

"Anyone who believes that exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist."

The inevitable result of an entire population growing way too big for their breaches has historically been proven time and time again to be: war, famine and pestilence.

So?
 
Yes, I saw that video, too. And, yes, it's pretty damning and you're not going to get one valid argument from most of the folks here in defense of Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, Franklin Raines or any of those folks. They're guilty, guilty, guilty and it's absolutely pathetic that the folks in the states of the Congressional members who were beating up on the regulator keep voting those dumb***es in.

If it were up to me, I'd probably regulate that nobody gets anything special. No subsidies, no loans, no bailouts, everybody pays cash for everything or they don't get it, save a significant percentage of your income every year for a personal nest egg/rainy day fund... things like that. Basically, I'd write the laws around a fairly simple principle: if you wanna' survive then get off your miserable a$$, quit b*tching and get something of done!

So? It's simple: regardless of what party was in power, or if there'd never been a housing bubble or whatever, we'd still be caught badly by the turndown in liquid fuels. Have you read about Cantarell lately?
 
I'm not worried about it being as bad for several major reasons.

ONE: I think they really disliked having so little power for so long that they will give a much greater effort to do a better job and maintain their control for a while.

SECONDLY: I think their leader President Obama is a genuinely good and extremely intelligent person. A lot trickles down from the top good or bad as we've seen with the bad of a Bush/Cheney administration.

THIRD: While there's no doubt we've been left in just terrible shape the good side of that is even very moderate improvement looks a lot better than the steady down swing we've been on. This leads to greater consumer confidence and also helps in other ways.

Forth: I think the overall mindset of focusing on the middle class is a good mindset. That along with a serious look at how we can make heathcare more affordable are very important long term.

We can do better than what we have the last 8 years I'm absolutely positive of that. We just need to come together as a nation a little and work together. We have the right President at the right time for that job... I really believe that!

You have far more faith in government than I have. I hope you're right, but I doubt it.
 
So? It's simple: regardless of what party was in power, or if there'd never been a housing bubble or whatever, we'd still be caught badly by the turndown in liquid fuels. Have you read about Cantarell lately?

I'm not sure taking one specific example, is a model for the planet. The biggest problem with oil production is our government preventing us from getting it.

The biggest problem in Mexico is that the oil company is socialized and controlled by the government. They lack the money to continue development of their oil reserves. If they do privatize the company, this will be fixed easy. There are actually dozens of spots in Mexico that have not been survived for oil production.

That said, I do not agree with the idea of a massive negative downturn caused by oil production. Assuming that oil reserves ever run out, or that consumption out paces production, simply based on the laws of economics, the price of oil energy will rise. As it does, other technologies, that are currently prohibitively expensive, will become more affordable comparably.

Such things as electric cars (despite cost and limitations), Bio Fuels (currently more costly), and clown cars as well as alternative energy cars, will all come to market as they become competitive.

I also do not see much of a correlation between fuel costs and economy growth. I pointed out some data in another post, that our economy has gotten worse since the price of oil has dropped, while doing much better when the price was higher and rising.
 
Werbung:
You're missing some the lead-lag dynamics.

With respect to "affordable" alternative energy, EROEI is still going to get you. If the cost of said transportation is a lot higher, then Joe the Plumber's not going to be able to afford it. No place is more drilled than the US. We've got about a half million producing wells making around over five million barrels of oil per day for an average of 10 barrels per day per well. And we still import almost 70% of our oil. There's no way in the world we could even come close to making up that difference. If our suppliers keep falling out of the export business for whatever reason, then the ramifications for us still exist.

The thing that you don't seem to be appreciating is how an exponentially falling EROEI affects both the volume and price of the net energy delivered to market, as well as how that feeds back to affect the economy as a whole. Another dynamic is the inherent process swings that are the natural consequence of supply-demand imbalances. You might try taking a little bit of time to study queueing theory and how things go to h*ll in a handbasket when serving capacity is overwhelmed by demand. Well, look around you buddy, because we're in the handbasket.
 
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