Palins latest gaffe

and yes I recall what Bush did...the problem is...he did it...and where has that gotten us today?

It has gone a long way in restricting North Korea's freedom of action.. it has been much more successful that you are letting on.

Unless we can get China, who has shown its not willing I think most can see, to cut off its help of North Korea...the leadership will stand, it will still have a powerful military, it will still have nukes, and it will still be a aggressor looking to to make shows of force to get the worlds attention and force us to bargain....and those actions could grow in size if they don't get what they want...leading to actions we may not have control over.

We never had control of their actions to begin with... why would that change?

I agree the solution is going to be China, but do you think China is going to suddenly "get on board" when we start saber rattling?

Sanctions I think can work..in a place like Iran..where the people, while limited have a voice and do have a understanding of whats going on...I am not sure the people of North Korea are going to put the pressure on there leaders to make the changes we need to see happen.

Probably not, but they don't have to either persay.

Also just putting as much Econ pressure as we can on them...could force some powers within Korea to move and possibly see a coup...but as for if who took over would be better is hard to say...I don't have much knowledge, nor do I think many in our government...of who such people could be, or how they would react.

I can think of less desirable scenarios than a coup.

so far our "containing" of North Korea has ended up with them getting nukes, sinking Naval ships, Firing on towns with Artillery....Now from a overall standpoint, the ship and Island issue could be lived with ( given the worse options) but how Secure can we feel with North Korea , as a nuclear power, and its current leadership....under and sense of "contained"

Our current policy toward North Korea, from Clinton to Bush to Obama has hardly been one of containment.

Unless the US is willing to lean on China enough, I think our Efforts are going to fall short...and the US does not have the willpower to lean on China as hard as needed I think.

And do you think leaning on China militarily is going to get us anywhere?
 
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I will make a bet with you right now that North Korea is not going to invade South Korea any time soon.

I agree...but the issue may not be a intended war...but a small action they take , as have 2 times in last few months...that leads to more then they intended. The Advantage of a Dictatorship, is you can control your reactions to a degree.....not as much in a Democracy, where already the wanting to make the North pay..is growing...and much more, could push there leadership to feel they have no choice but a reaction bigger then the North planned...

Its often said that Democracies do not go to war with each other ( Not saying I buy it), but I do know that Democracies ones you get them ready for a attack...can be hard to hold back do to the fact you have to rally the people so hard that you need to attack back...and that they are the enemy and must be stopped...that you can't backtrack easy once you have the gears in motion.
 
It has gone a long way in restricting North Korea's freedom of action.. it has been much more successful that you are letting on.



We never had control of their actions to begin with... why would that change?

I agree the solution is going to be China, but do you think China is going to suddenly "get on board" when we start saber rattling?



Probably not, but they don't have to either persay.



I can think of less desirable scenarios than a coup.



Our current policy toward North Korea, from Clinton to Bush to Obama has hardly been one of containment.



And do you think leaning on China militarily is going to get us anywhere?

I was talking about leaning on China politically and Economically, not Military...that would be insane I think to put it mildly and if anything make them back North Korea more.That said, like I said, I don't think the US is going to do much of any...its going to take China wanting to do it, not us making them do it.

as for US policy hardly being Containment...I agree to a point...If we are saying that they have no invaded S. Korea..then yes we have..as far as keeping them from growing as a threat...no we have not...as I stated..things have got worse under Clinton and Bush and Obama....

But what do you think we can do more? When a nation has got to the point of reports of Canibalism for food...with few in the world trading with them as is...without china...we are limited in our Containment


So, ruling out the miltary option, knowing China will not do much, and saying new leadership may not be a key...how do you think we should hold them back , get rid of there nuclear power, and or at least get them to stop attacking S. Korea?
 
I will make a bet with you right now that North Korea is not going to invade South Korea any time soon.

How soon is "soon"? What is the basis for your assertion? They just made the first military attack since the 1950s.
 
How soon is "soon"? What is the basis for your assertion? They just made the first military attack since the 1950s.

First military attack since the 1950s?? Really?


March 1980: Three North Koreans are killed while trying to cross the Han River estuary.

March 1981: Three North Koreans try to enter the South in Geumhwa-eup, Cheorwon, Gangwon-do; one is killed.

July 1981: Three North Koreans are killed trying to cross the Imjin River to the South.

November 1984: Three North Korean soldiers and one South Korean soldier die, and one American soldier is wounded during the firefight that erupted when a North Korean security detail chased a defecting Soviet citizen (Vasily Matusak) across the MDL into the southern-controlled sector of the Joint Security Area.

May 1992: Three Northern soldiers in South Korean uniforms are killed in Cheolwon, Gangwon-do; three South Korean soldiers are wounded.

May 1995: North Korean forces fire on a South Korean fishing boat, killing three.

October 1995: Two armed North Koreans are discovered at the Imjin River; one is killed.

April 1996: Several hundred armed North Korean troops cross repeatedly into the Demilitarized Zone.

May 1996: Seven Northern soldiers cross south of the Demilitarized Zone, but retreat after warning shots are fired.

May & June 1996: North Korean vessels twice cross the Northern Limit Line and have a several-hour standoff with the South Korean navy.

April 1997: Five North Korean soldiers cross the Demilitarized Zone in Cheolwon, Gangwon-do, and fire on South Korean positions.

June 1997: Three North Korean vessels cross the Northern Limit Line and attack South Korean vessels two miles (3 km) south of the line. On land, fourteen North Korean soldiers cross 70 m south of the center of the DMZ, leading to a 23-minute exchange of fire.

June 1999: A series of clashes between North and South Korean vessels take place in the Yellow Sea near the Northern Limit Line.

2001: On twelve separate occasions, North Korean vessels cross the Northern Limit Line and then retreat.

November 27, 2001: North and South Korean forces exchange fire without injuries.

June 29, 2002: Renewed naval clashes near the Northern Limit Line lead to the deaths of four South Korean sailors and the sinking of a North Korean vessel. The number of North Koreans killed is unknown.

November 16, 2002: South Korean forces fire warning shots on a Northern boat crossing the Northern Limit Line. The boat retreats. The incident is repeated on November 20.

February 19, 2003: A North Korean fighter plane crosses seven miles (11 km) south of the Northern Limit Line, and returns north after being intercepted by six South Korean planes.

March 2, 2003: Four North Korean fighter jets intercept a US reconnaissance plane over the Sea of Japan.

July 17, 2003: North and South Korean forces exchange fire at the DMZ around 6 AM. The South Korean army reports four rounds fired from the North and seventeen from the South. No injuries are reported.

November 1, 2004: North Korean vessels, claiming to be in pursuit of illegal fishing craft, cross the Northern Limit Line and are fired upon by the South. The vessels retreat 3 hours later.

July 30, 2006: Several rounds are exchanged near a South Korean post in Yanggu, Gangwon.

November 10, 2009: Naval vessels from the two Koreas exchanged fire in the area of the NLL, reportedly causing serious damage to a North Korean patrol ship.

March 26, 2010: A South Korean naval vessel, the ROKS Cheonan, was sunk by an explosion near Baengnyeong Island in the Yellow Sea.


The Korean Peninsula is just one of those areas of the world that this stuff happens in. It is similar to the border between India and Pakistan, and even the situation in Israel...

Just because there is a minor dispute or even something like this artillery shelling, it really does not mean that war is coming.
 
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First military attack since the 1950s?? Really?


March 1980: Three North Koreans are killed while trying to cross the Han River estuary.

March 1981: Three North Koreans try to enter the South in Geumhwa-eup, Cheorwon, Gangwon-do; one is killed.

July 1981: Three North Koreans are killed trying to cross the Imjin River to the South.

November 1984: Three North Korean soldiers and one South Korean soldier die, and one American soldier is wounded during the firefight that erupted when a North Korean security detail chased a defecting Soviet citizen (Vasily Matusak) across the MDL into the southern-controlled sector of the Joint Security Area.

May 1992: Three Northern soldiers in South Korean uniforms are killed in Cheolwon, Gangwon-do; three South Korean soldiers are wounded.

May 1995: North Korean forces fire on a South Korean fishing boat, killing three.

October 1995: Two armed North Koreans are discovered at the Imjin River; one is killed.

April 1996: Several hundred armed North Korean troops cross repeatedly into the Demilitarized Zone.

May 1996: Seven Northern soldiers cross south of the Demilitarized Zone, but retreat after warning shots are fired.

May & June 1996: North Korean vessels twice cross the Northern Limit Line and have a several-hour standoff with the South Korean navy.

April 1997: Five North Korean soldiers cross the Demilitarized Zone in Cheolwon, Gangwon-do, and fire on South Korean positions.

June 1997: Three North Korean vessels cross the Northern Limit Line and attack South Korean vessels two miles (3 km) south of the line. On land, fourteen North Korean soldiers cross 70 m south of the center of the DMZ, leading to a 23-minute exchange of fire.

June 1999: A series of clashes between North and South Korean vessels take place in the Yellow Sea near the Northern Limit Line.

2001: On twelve separate occasions, North Korean vessels cross the Northern Limit Line and then retreat.

November 27, 2001: North and South Korean forces exchange fire without injuries.

June 29, 2002: Renewed naval clashes near the Northern Limit Line lead to the deaths of four South Korean sailors and the sinking of a North Korean vessel. The number of North Koreans killed is unknown.

November 16, 2002: South Korean forces fire warning shots on a Northern boat crossing the Northern Limit Line. The boat retreats. The incident is repeated on November 20.

February 19, 2003: A North Korean fighter plane crosses seven miles (11 km) south of the Northern Limit Line, and returns north after being intercepted by six South Korean planes.

March 2, 2003: Four North Korean fighter jets intercept a US reconnaissance plane over the Sea of Japan.

July 17, 2003: North and South Korean forces exchange fire at the DMZ around 6 AM. The South Korean army reports four rounds fired from the North and seventeen from the South. No injuries are reported.

November 1, 2004: North Korean vessels, claiming to be in pursuit of illegal fishing craft, cross the Northern Limit Line and are fired upon by the South. The vessels retreat 3 hours later.

July 30, 2006: Several rounds are exchanged near a South Korean post in Yanggu, Gangwon.

November 10, 2009: Naval vessels from the two Koreas exchanged fire in the area of the NLL, reportedly causing serious damage to a North Korean patrol ship.

March 26, 2010: A South Korean naval vessel, the ROKS Cheonan, was sunk by an explosion near Baengnyeong Island in the Yellow Sea.


The Korean Peninsula is just one of those areas of the world that this stuff happens in. It is similar to the border between India and Pakistan, and even the situation in Israel...

Just because there is a minor dispute or even something like this artillery shelling, it really does not mean that war is coming.

I was going to say, its not even first attack this year...but since you nailed them all, no point doing it again
 
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