People are not basically good....

[Dr.Who]

I remember him as extremely full of himself,which was comic, and very fond of beer, which I approved. I think his theology was more about popularity than any 'God'.

Whether or not any of that is true it would not change in any way the take-away we can get from his statement. The words should stand on their own apart from the man and attempts to link the validity of the two would be an ad hominem.

 

[Dr.Who]

You're a glutton for punishment, aren't you? I see no other reason why you continue to post claims that are so embarrassingly WRONG. This thread isn't the place to discuss the religiously-based principles of America's founding fathers. If you find or start an appropriate thread in which to do so, I'll be happy to continue your embarrassment there.

Aside from the spin and the implied conclusion I actually find some truth in what he said.

Were the founders Deists? Yes, they believed in a God. Were they merely Deists and is that the most accurate word to use? No, primarily they were Christians.

Were they tax dodgers? Well they did object strongly to taxes for a variety of reasons the worst of which is that they simply did not want to pay them. But that is clearly spin.

Is Christianity a form of Judaism without the admirable bits? The answer to what is admirable and what is not is mostly opinion. And it is perhaps more of a form of Judaism than some common forms of Judaism.

Do any Americans base their behavior on the NT? Well, certainly most are shallow and lacking in morals. Even most serious Christians have more failings than accomplishments. Though surely at least one American bases enough of his behavior on the NT to make the cliam technically false. even as a generality there are many Americans who are influenced by the NT enough that I would say yes many base their behavior on the NT. Then again I could easily see a sermon attempting to persuade Americans to deepen their faith by generalizing that Americans do not follow the NT to a sufficiently meaningful degree. There seems to be enough wiggle room here so that someone could claim either position and support either to a degree.

 

[Dr.Who]

You deny that the major founders were Deist tax-evaders? I see human beings as individalas and brainwashed goons as puppets, since you ask.

Perhaps there is not one of us who escapes being brainwashed. Hint hint.

 

[Gipper]

You were set up by Deist tax-dodgers, as you know, and currently favour a form of Judaism without the admirable bits. When did any American since Woolman base his behaviour of the New Testament?

Yeah...all Americans are evil...says the Caveman.

 

[Iolo2]

Perhaps there is not one of us who escapes being brainwashed. Hint hint.

Oh the huge power of democratic revolutionary socialism over the enslaved British peasants. Grow up. Who!

 

[Iolo2]

Yeah...all Americans are evil...says the Caveman.

No - all extremist nutters in America are so daft and brainwashed that the world laughs at them. Mostly they are very pleasant, except when they are shooting children to defend themselves from George 111..

 

[Iolo2]

No, that was not what you claimed! You claimed that America's founders were Deists and tax-evaders. You make sweeping claims that encompass entire groups of human beings. Like most socialists/Marxists, you don't see human beings as "individuals". You see groups like "bankers", "Christians", "Jews", "Whites", "Blacks", "Women", and "Muslims". America's founders taught us many great truths. The importance of the individual is one of those great truths.

If you'd like to test the veracity of your original claim, I suggest you study the life and beliefs of Benjamin Franklin. Franklin considered himself a Deist in his early life. Nevertheless, throughout his life, his belief in one God was unshakable. In his later life, after years of experience and learning, his religious beliefs modified. He freely admitted that he was unsure of the divinity of Christ. At the same time, he claimed that the religious teachings of Christ were the most profound and most worthy of all religious principles. He prayed regularly, and insisted that strong religious principles were the foundation of great nations and great people. Regardless of what Franklin's religious beliefs may be called, I find them to be "scientific", "objective", "honest", and worthy of respect.

The point is that, as Americans now, some of the founders SAID they were Christian, but they showed no sign of knowing what that meant, or or ever having read the Sermon on the Mount. By their fruit shall ye know them - and there's no sign of any Christianity there, is there? Bad Jews at best.

 

[dogtowner]

The point is that, as Americans now, some of the founders SAID they were Christian, but they showed no sign of knowing what that meant, or or ever having read the Sermon on the Mount. By their fruit shall ye know them - and there's no sign of any Christianity there, is there? Bad Jews at best.

its always a hoot when the godless talk religion

 

[Aus22]

Although Americans are not perfect, more go to church than most other country. Some of their attitude to guns and terrorism is strange for the rest of the world. However while most are not of my denomination I think they are trying to be Christian. If you obey rules of Christianity you should be good

 

[Iolo2]

Although Americans are not perfect, more go to church than most other country. Some of their attitude to guns and terrorism is strange for the rest of the world. However while most are not of my denomination I think they are trying to be Christian. If you obey rules of Christianity you should be good

That is indeed their problem - it helps 'em in business, whereas Christianity would have them on the street pronto!

 

[TheJPRD]

The point is that, as Americans now, some of the founders SAID they were Christian, but they showed no sign of knowing what that meant, or or ever having read the Sermon on the Mount. By their fruit shall ye know them - and there's no sign of any Christianity there, is there? Bad Jews at best.

You continue to speak of human beings in terms of some group to which you feel they belong. Passing judgment on all of our Christian founders as if they all behaved in the same is bigoted. What you do is no different than those who say that Muslims are all terrorists, African Americans are all lazy, or that all women make decisions solely on emotional bases. Don't bother to point out that you used the words "some of the founders". You used that phrase to specifically isolate all of those founders who "SAID thay were Christians". Surely you can see this?

 

[Iolo2]

You continue to speak of human beings in terms of some group to which you feel they belong. Passing judgment on all of our Christian founders as if they all behaved in the same is bigoted. What you do is no different than those who say that Muslims are all terrorists, African Americans are all lazy, or that all women make decisions solely on emotional bases. Don't bother to point out that you used the words "some of the founders". You used that phrase to specifically isolate all of those founders who "SAID thay were Christians". Surely you can see this?

I was brought up Christian, and clearly that was not an option for your tax-dodgers or your greedy capitalists, as you must see: at best they were some sort of Jews, very badly instructed ones. Liars are not admirable, especially when they lie to fool others in their own selfish interest, as the British people and the French were led to support these racist thieves.

 

[Dr.Who]

That is indeed their problem - it helps 'em in business, whereas Christianity would have them on the street pronto!

What does that mean?

 

[Iolo2]

What does that mean?

Christianity is a revolutionary movement, totally opposed to what makes America tick. You have a sort of cardboard-cutout pretence of it.

 

[dogtowner]

Christianity is a revolutionary movement, totally opposed to what makes America tick. You have a sort of cardboard-cutout pretence of it.

you know, limiting your understanding of Christ's teaching to the sermon on the mount is like looking at a great painting through a pinhole. what you see is.great but does not convey the fullness of the piece.