Scores dead as Israel attacks Gaza

Bunz

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Basil, doesnt shooting rockets that have virtually zero guidance systems in place also risk families, schools, and other public/religious buildings. I am just speaking for myself, but if my neighbor continued to shoot bullets towards my house, I would go confront that neighbor and do so with a much bigger gun than he had.

As to the thread at hand, please do tell us, do you think Israel has the right to exist?
 
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Basil

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it exists! and it is killing civillians. what matters now is the civillians that are geting killed in gaza, only yesterday, 136 palestinians were killed!

if israel doesnt think palestine should exist, and appearently it acts up on that base, then i think it doesnt have the right to exist!

if israel is just attackin hamas, why,, just tell me why did i just see on tv 3 kids, the oldest among them is 7 and half years old, and the youngest is only afew months old. they are all shot in the head or on the chest with israeli refiles after there ground troops entered gaza... when u c them chot to the head or the chest, it says one thing! they did see them, they did see that those are kids, but they shot!! directly at them.
this kind of mistakes doesnt happen even in video games!

this war is to elienate the palestinian existance in gaza,, and break them to make them accept whatever israel want. it is a declared war at CIVILLIANS.
 

Bunz

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Before I go any further, Please just answer my simple question as asked earlier.
As to the thread at hand, please do tell us, do you think Israel has the right to exist?

Once this question is answered than we can deal with the situation on the ground in an appropriate manner. Until then, the excercise is fruitless.
 

Basil

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if you are trying to make me look like an anti-semitism by asking the question, then let me be clear! i am not against jew people. i am not here to tell them go throw yourself to the sea. even if i see that the one who is borned on the palestinian soil have the right to live there more than the immegrants who escaped from europe in world war 2!
i am just saying that what israel is doing in gaza is wrong, inhuman and an obvious crime against civillaization in general!
i dont want to drift away from the main topic to me, which is the 680 dead people in gaza, and almost 3000 injred! this is anti-human!
 

Bunz

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OK Basil, then you would agree that Israel has a right to exist as a country.
Now, I would ask then, how do you expect the Israeli's to respond to missiles being fired into thier lands? Personally I would go to the source and eliminate the launch of those missiles. Now if those launching the missiles hide them in schools, hospitals, and mosques...I would attack the sources of attacks on my country wherever they originate from.
 

Basil

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as i said before! theUN denied what the IDF said, the school was clear and no hamas members are inside them! yet they bombed it and killed more than 40 civillians!
that i what i am talking about. this is clearly a crime. and it happened alot in the last 11 days. and it happened before. this time the UN says so, not al jazeera, not hamas! what else do you want to belive it? and this crime is one of aloot of crimes the IDF commetted in gaza. but there is no "non-biased" witnesses as in this one. think how many times did israel did it and got away with it because there is no media coverage!
if it is not a war on humanity, let the media in. let the red cross do its job!
 

SW85

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i want you to explian, why is israel banning the reporters from getting into gaza, and banning them from saying anything that doesnt come out of the IDF mouth?

dont you think there is somthing the israelis are hiding?

Perhaps because it's a war zone and they feel obligated not to let people go wandering around in it?

John Ging, the UNRWA Director of Operations in Gaza, stressed that all UN schools in Gaza are clearly marked, flying the UN flag, and that the organisation has provided the GPS coordinates of all of its installations in the area to Israel. “Those who were in the school were all families seeking refuge,” the UN News Centre quoted him as saying.

Of course it was a school. Did anyone deny it? This makes Hamas' barbarism all the more rank -- they knew what it was when they decided to use it as a bunker.

i am just saying that what israel is doing in gaza is wrong, inhuman and an obvious crime against civillaization in general!

No no no.

What they are doing is acting in self-defense, a right that all sovereign nations enjoy.

It is your people who are committing war crimes by using human shields and deliberately causing massive civilian casualties in order to engineer headlines. And furthermore, it's your countrymen who started a war they could not win against a militarily superior neighbor, building or buying thousands of rockets to lob at Israeli kindergartens instead of directing those resources toward creating and sustaining a peaceful lifestyle, one in which your children have food and water and a decent education and the like.

Your people's revanchist ambitions are so pathetic you cannot even win the public support of your neighbors, who share your ethnicity, your religion, your language, and much of your recent history. And now thanks to the Hamas thugs that your people have so quietly tolerated, everyone who lives in Palestine is a security risk -- not likely to be admitted anywhere.

as i said before! theUN denied what the IDF said, the school was clear and no hamas members are inside them! yet they bombed it and killed more than 40 civillians!

And their basis for that claim is what, since you just said the IDF is not allowing anyone inside the war zone? Hmm?

Has it occurred to you that even for people on the ground there, it is nearly impossible to tell the difference between a civilian and a Hamas thug unless he's got a gun pointed at you?
 

Basil

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there is UN officials in gaza, people who are not hamas, people who are not palestinan, people whos only intrest is in the value of human life. and they said : They are all families in here! that school had nothing inside it but famillies, famillies that were forced out of there homes, famillies who were seeking safty! and israel knows it!

we are people too. we want to live life too. but since israel had forced a sige on us. stopped the life from going. since they cut the power on the whole strip. no electricity and no water and no oil is available! what do you want the people to do? just die?
of course theyy will fight back and that what hamas did. it was firing rockets in responce to the sige that was forced on the people of gaza!

and the arab nations didnt give us up. maybe the governments did, but not the people. sadly our governments are allllll not elected by arabs, or so weak. but of course you chose the dectator with oil under him to attack while all the others are non of your concern! they are all corrupted and cae about how to please america and get support money. look at the turkey stance of the proplem! why didnt you see that

no matter how long does it take the palestinian case is a just case and now one can break there determenation to live free!
 

The Scotsman

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Basil, can we just step back a moment from the killing of civilians which as distastful as it is, is a part of war which is what we are dealing with. All the talk of ceasfires and stopping rockets and opening borders are all useful but just treating symptoms and not the cause.

I think the cause of all this is Iran, I believe that Hamas (and similar groups) are sponsored by Iran in order to actually perpetuate this middle eastern conflict. I have always thought that Iran's goal is to control the Holy Islamic mosques of Masjid al Haram in Mecca and Masjid al-Nabawi in Medina. In order to do this they need an excuse to either directly invade or proxy an invasion of an Arab country. Iran could not and would not invade Saudi as Iranians are not Arabs thus their only other option is to install a puppet in Saudi by an "invasion" through Shī‘ah sponsored groups loyal to the Iranian ruling Clerics.

How do you achieve this? Simple really.....you keep unrest going in Palestine and Israel. The reason is not hard to see, the USA and "west" are seen as friends of Israel or on the other side aggressors against the Palestinians, thus, by default against Islam! Iran needs to forment revolution in Saudia Arabia to rid the country of the ruling Ibn Saud family and to install an Iranian proxy which they can do by fueling fundementalist factions with money, weapons and religious dogma as well as anti-western propoganda - tales of US and western aggression against the poor Palestinians etc. etc. etc.

Saudi Arabia is allied with the west, why? Not really because of oil as that is just commerce - a simple commercial transaction (look at Russia). Saudi Arabia needs the protection of non-muslim allies such as the UK and US because they need support against the fundementalist wahabi factions and those of Shī‘ah Muslims which make up majority of Iran and Iraq!

So, in my humble oppinion treating the causes of the actual conflict and stopping civilian casualties one really has to look at Iran and Hamas' relationship with Iran and Shī‘ah Islamic expansionism. Hopefully that will come when Ayatollah Khamenei passes away, however, I fear there are a few more years of fighting and dying left to go!
 

Basil

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what i am saying is that all those killings cant be allowed for any reason, and attacking civillian cities is not a way to insure security because violence only generates violence, and it would never make anyone scure!

Iran! i dont think the relation between hamas and iran is a true strong relation. hamas is a sunna group that first started at the 1987 intefada. and it appeared first to protest the occupation of the palestinians land then when gaza and the west bank were completly under the israeli control.. so i dont think iran did creat hamas even if it is supporting it now.
 

numinus

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Israel had surrendered gazza days before the ceasefire ended and days before any rockets fired. I'm not even sure it was the hamas who send the first rocket. The Israel government said it had planned the war about two weeks before.

EVERYONE has a plan for the eventuality of war -- especially against someone who poses an IMMINENT THREAT to one's survival. Hamas and hezbollah presents a CLEAR AND (EVER)PRESENT DANGER to israel.

EVen now, I think israel has a plan to bomb iran to kingdom come -- given your present government's rhetoric against them.

Right is right and wrong is wrong.

So true.

Even 60 years can't make you convinced that your home is no more your home if it was taken from you by force and illegally.

The palestinians ceased to 'own their home' the moment they LOST in the war with israel -- a war of their own (and quite frankly, the arab world's) making.

Oh, and you need to know your history before you fling rhetorics about 'land ownership'.

The majority of the land in palestine prior to 1948, (during the british 'management' of the mandate) were owned by ARAB LANDLORDS residing in damascus or some such place deemed 'cosmopolitan' for the 'landed gentry'. The real palestinians didn't own the land. They just worked it -- exactly like the feudal set-up in europe.

In fact, the jews BOUGHT land from these landlords to establish the prototypical kibbutz.

So you see, the arab-israel conflict of 1948 was, in fact, a blatant attempt at a land-grab against the jews -- aside from a genocidal war everyone already knows.

There is nothing illegal nor criminal in what the jews are doing.

Right is right and wrong is wrong and even the law sometimes makes mistakes about it.

True, again. I wonder why you persist on asserting what is clearly wrong as something right, hmmm?

And I'm saying that even this mistakable law can recognize that Israel is the war criminal in this position.

A people, even in diaspora, has a RIGHT TO EXIST AS A PEOPLE. Same people has the inalienable RIGHT TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.

Prior to israel statehood, the UN has proposed the TWO STATE SOLUTION. Until now, the UN is still proposing the TWO STATE SOLUTION. Israel has accepted this from the beginning (see the israel's declaration of independence). Only now is egypt and jordan accepting this.

UNTIL NOW, THE PALESTINIANS HAVE NOT YET ACCEPTED THIS.

The palestinians cannot even form a coherent central government to rule themselves. What they do is nurture the fantasy world where jews do not exist, instead of working for a solution based on REALITY-- that the jews have their own state situated in palestine and would do ANYTHING within their power to stay that way.
 

numinus

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Iif you look back at history you see palestine is a country that all abrahamic religions had battled for and won over throughout the history.
There remains a need for another topic to talk about the relationships between the religeons ant the rules of war in the religous teachings.

I should read more about it myself. But may be we can compare it here with the way americans setttled in the native american's lands. Not the pointing at the method, eg war with guns, etc over sword and spear. But pointing at the fact that the law would not agree the native americans having a right to attack american homes to get their land back.
You see when you talk about a land as a home, having your long before ancestors lived in a land doesn't give you the right to concern the land your own and bomb villages to kill the present habitants. A home is were you and your family have lived in and you have built in and worked for.

What are you talking about???

Presently, palestine (or a large chunk of it) belongs to israel. Prior to that, uk had de facto ownership. Prior to that, the ottoman empire. Prior to that, but very briefly, the christian crusaders of europe. Prior to that, the royal houses established by mohammed. And prior to that (and here you need to fill in the gaps because I'm not quite sure), the roman empire, macedonian empire established by alexander, and a host of other mesopotamian empires that rose and fell -- oh including the jewish monarchy.

All this history is IRRELEVANT to the REGALIAN DOCTRINE of land ownership.

HE WHO EXERCISES SOVEREIGN POWER OWNS THE LAND. TODAY THAT IS ISRAEL.

You want to take it back for the palestinian arabs, or even iran? Be my guest. Just stop whining about it -- especially if the jews roundly beat you AGAIN (and by all indications, they will) and end up owning iran in the process.

Duh?
 

numinus

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why do you think hamas attacks?
as soon as hamas annonced that it controls Gaza, Israel forced the sige on the whole strip. trying to break hamas and force it to give up. the only thing that resulted from that policy is making hamas even stronger in the eyes of the people. because they are the only ones trying to defend the people of gaza in this sige. the rockets were a reply to the sige. it cause suffering in israel, ya,,, but the only reason they fired it is the suffering they live in gaza!
the more attacks israel makes on palestinians, the more Legitimacy hamas gets.
and if you compare the suffering in Gaza to the suffering in israel, you will be really shocked!

I'm sure you are tuned in exclusively to goat-herder radio, hence completely clueless as to what other news establishment are saying.

Whatever you are inclined to believe, israel has only THREE DEMANDS, all of them quite REASONABLE.

1. Cease all rocket attacks.

2. Hamas disarms and join the rest of the civilized world in the civilized political process.

3. The international community, as well as hamas, become liable to the enforcement of ceasefire.

Hamas would be an organization of idiots not to accept this. In fact, israel, being the superior party in this, could very well ask for all sorts of things.

And you, as palestinians, have a very big say in this as well. Hamas simply cannot do what they have been doing without YOUR TACIT CONSENT.
 

numinus

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they dont hide in schools, nor in hospital! unless the injured people may be hamas so we should make sure they are dead!
ill ask u the same question..
what do you want palestinians to do when there cities are bombed to the ground?

Tell the hoodlums of hamas to store and fire their rockets someplace else -- preferably near the border where they can fight the jews face-to-face.

Quite frankly, I'm sick of seeing hamas militants posing macho and all in front of the news camera and swiftly ducks under the skirt of women when payback comes along.

what palestinians do is just a reaction, a desprate try to reply on what is going on these attacks. I just watched a grown man crying, his kids and wife are all dead when they bombed his house, and he is the soul survivor! do you think this man was hiding rockets under his kids beds? no he doesnt!

No.

But I bet he knows that his neighbor does. Or he knows his immam does at the mosque basement -- which serves as school as well.

Quite frankly, palestinians give new meaning to the term 'illegal possession of a deadly weapon'.

as long as israel keep attacking palestinians, the palestinans will shoot there rockets at them!

Your lie makes NO SENSE whatsoever.

Why would israel pull back from gaza only to retake it in a year -- at considerable expense both material and human life?

Pulling back from gaza was a CONCESSION so that the peace process may proceed. You got the concession with absolutely no concession of your own in return. Hamas merely used the ceasefire to lick its wounds and reconstitute itself.

If you cannot rid yourselves of hamas, then israel will do it for you. Its that simple.

hamas has turned into the puplic fighting back the injustice that had been living because of israel for more than 60 years now

So, you are saying this is a continuation of the original arab-israeli conflict of 1948?

You couldn't win the last time, when syria, egypt, iraq, iran and jordan were helping you. What makes you think you can win now that israel has nukes and fancy jets to deliver them, hmmm?

You CANNOT WIN in this. From a military point of view, the best you can hope for is MUTUAL ANNIHILATION. And I suspect, your hamas knows this as well. The only way open to them is international outrage. That is why they use your women and children as a bomb shield.
 
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