Simply must have more guns

50 years ago, the idea that you could buy an AR-15 off a lemonade stand would also have been a crazy idea. Or that 17 kids could have been killed by an AR-15 in a few minutes.

You are myopic as usual, as you do not think of the future.

Changing the Constitution? SURE, let's do it! But with 48 Republican senators and 4 Democratic senators on the NRA payroll. . .for years. . . and the current president being funded by the NRA, how will that happen.

The Constitution spells out how it can be amended. Your, and the gun control lobby, overall problem is that the majority of the Country doesn't want to see it changed - that is your real hurdle. You want to sit here and rant about how out of touch I am and then ignore the basic fact that your position is seemingly incapable of going out and winning election. If you want to see gun control - run for office on that platform.

So, what the kids are doing today, is the only thing that gives me hope to correct the insanity of the gun culture in this crazy country! The kids will soon be able to vote, some already this year! They will not forget, and they will not let go.

I have no problem with people engaged in the political process. I hope they do vote the first chance that they get.

This latest massacre is becoming the worse nightmare for Republicans, for the NRA. This latest massacre has CREATED a new generation of aware citizens, of activists.

We hear this over and over and over again every time something terrible like this occurs, but the simple fact remains that gun control is not winning elections. There are plenty of other issues that might win Democrats some elections (and 2018 is shaping up to be a good year for you guys) - but I would guess if you polled the country "gun control" is pretty low on a list on overall issues.

By the way, this "fantasy" about democrats having "total control of the government" for 2 years under Obama is totally ridiculous.

Yes, Democrats did have "total control" of the HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVE and they had 57 seats in the senate. But to pass any significant legislation, because of filibuster, it takes 60 votes in the senate. And the Republicans obviously blocked every attempts!

This is just false. In January of 2009 they held (with the two I's in their Caucus) 59 seats. Due to health problems etc, in April of 2009 they had 58 sitting Senators, and by September of of 2009 they had 60. They maintained 60 Senators until February of 2010 when Scott Brown was sworn in.

However, you say Republicans blocked all their efforts for major gun control reform...please reference particular bills that passed out of the House that enacted gun control reform you wanted to see that then went on to die in the Senate.

Hypocrisy is so engrained in you. . .you are a worthy Republican!

Thanks - but you can see the truth above.

And what about the CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT of the people to pursue LIFE, LIBERTY, and PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS?

This statement is found in the Declaration of Independence...not the Constitution.

How can we pursue happiness, when our life, the life of our children, is threatened daily by the craziness of gun addicts?

Based on actual data, to argue that your "life and the life of your children" is threatened daily is pretty laughable.


I'm not the one using the tragedy of the Florida school shooting for political gain...that is you...and indeed it is shameful.
 
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The Constitution spells out how it can be amended. Your, and the gun control lobby, overall problem is that the majority of the Country doesn't want to see it changed - that is your real hurdle. You want to sit here and rant about how out of touch I am and then ignore the basic fact that your position is seemingly incapable of going out and winning election. If you want to see gun control - run for office on that platform.

The majority of the people support more gun control, and you had best to pay attention to the children, and not just in Florida. Your losing your choke hold on the country.

We hear this over and over and over again every time something terrible like this occurs, but the simple fact remains that gun control is not winning elections. There are plenty of other issues that might win Democrats some elections (and 2018 is shaping up to be a good year for you guys) - but I would guess if you polled the country "gun control" is pretty low on a list on overall issues.

You would be wrong as usual:

http://www.people-press.org/2017/06/22/public-views-about-guns/#total

This is just false. In January of 2009 they held (with the two I's in their Caucus) 59 seats. Due to health problems etc, in April of 2009 they had 58 sitting Senators, and by September of of 2009 they had 60. They maintained 60 Senators until February of 2010 when Scott Brown was sworn in.

However, you say Republicans blocked all their efforts for major gun control reform...please reference particular bills that passed out of the House that enacted gun control reform you wanted to see that then went on to die in the Senate.


Another one that does not understand the filibuster, the power of the Congress, or what a majority is.

Thanks - but you can see the truth above.

Not from your words.

This statement is found in the Declaration of Independence...not the Constitution.

Not specifically, yet it is there:

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


I'm not the one using the tragedy of the Florida school shooting for political gain...that is you...and indeed it is shameful.

Is she running for office, or could that be Trump just spouting off as usual?
 
Sorry if there was any implication otherwise.
not at all sir...:)
Then how is this all the fault of Republicans? Less than 10 years ago Democrats controlled the White House, the House, and had a filibuster proof majority in the Senate. Why didn't they do anything?
That was my point. Its not just a failure on individual Presidents but also of the representatives of the "people" of whatever colour. Its a general failure.
At what point does it become enough? Is 17 dead acceptable in the "cost benefit" equation of right to own a gun versus a citizens right to life? Without wanting to open the can of worms...it appears...I say that with a degree of caution as I don't want to generalise too much...but it seems that those who hold the right to life precious (as in the pro-life camp) are almost the same demographic that hold true to the rights of the 2nd!

What is not acceptable is pretending in lieu of such change that the rights of millions of law abiding people are illegitimate due to an appeal to emotion.
But isn't that exactly what happened with regard to the Volsted Act...18th Amendment?
 
Amendment V
I think the 5th Amendment is problematic in this case as from my limited understanding it is an enacting amendment based on the original Constitution and the Bill or Rights. From what I understand there is no "right" to life per se (right to life is qualified within the bill) other than as ratified by the US under the UN delaration of Human Rights to which the US is a signatory... please correct me it I'm wrong. I know I used that term above but only in the context of rights afforded to citizens under the UN declaration....which again is problematic as it is not strictly legally binding.

I would however agree wholeheartedly with the concept and would argue that inspite of the slightly fudged "right" it should nonetheless be what people strive to impress upon law makers.
 
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The Constitution spells out how it can be amended. Your, and the gun control lobby, overall problem is that the majority of the Country doesn't want to see it changed - that is your real hurdle. You want to sit here and rant about how out of touch I am and then ignore the basic fact that your position is seemingly incapable of going out and winning election. If you want to see gun control - run for office on that platform.



I have no problem with people engaged in the political process. I hope they do vote the first chance that they get.



We hear this over and over and over again every time something terrible like this occurs, but the simple fact remains that gun control is not winning elections. There are plenty of other issues that might win Democrats some elections (and 2018 is shaping up to be a good year for you guys) - but I would guess if you polled the country "gun control" is pretty low on a list on overall issues.



This is just false. In January of 2009 they held (with the two I's in their Caucus) 59 seats. Due to health problems etc, in April of 2009 they had 58 sitting Senators, and by September of of 2009 they had 60. They maintained 60 Senators until February of 2010 when Scott Brown was sworn in.

However, you say Republicans blocked all their efforts for major gun control reform...please reference particular bills that passed out of the House that enacted gun control reform you wanted to see that then went on to die in the Senate.



Thanks - but you can see the truth above.



This statement is found in the Declaration of Independence...not the Constitution.



Based on actual data, to argue that your "life and the life of your children" is threatened daily is pretty laughable.



I'm not the one using the tragedy of the Florida school shooting for political gain...that is you...and indeed it is shameful.

The second amendment doesn't even need to be changed! It only needs to be interpreted the way it was met to be understood.

It is not ONE tragedy. . .it is 239 massacres since year 2000! Get your facts straight! How many more tragedies do you need before YOU take some action?

If you think that any of the kids and any of the parents and family member who have been close to those 239 tragedies can live their days feeling secure, you are delusional!

My own son and his wife moved to Australia 15 years ago because they didn't want their son (who is now 19) to have to go to school through metal detectors and feel unsafe!

And the tide is turning, and hopefully will swallow and bury all the NRA brain washing propaganda and the 48 Republicans and 4 Democrat senators who have blood on their hands.

Poll: Majorities of Both Parties Favor Increased Gun Restrictions : NPR
https://www.npr.org/.../poll-majorities-of-both-parties-favor-increased-gun-restrictions

And please note that this poll dates from 2017, after the Vegas massacre, BEFORE this latest school massacre!

<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https://www.facebook.com/TheOther98/photos/a.115969958413991.17486.114517875225866/2284303991580566/?type=3&width=500" width="500" height="308" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowTransparency="true"></iframe>
 
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I think the 5th Amendment is problematic in this case as from my limited understanding it is an enacting amendment based on the original Constitution and the Bill or Rights. From what I understand there is no "right" to life per se (right to life is qualified within the bill) other than as ratified by the US under the UN delaration of Human Rights to which the US is a signatory... please correct me it I'm wrong. I know I used that term above but only in the context of rights afforded to citizens under the UN declaration....which again is problematic as it is not strictly legally binding.

I would however agree wholeheartedly with the concept and would argue that inspite of the slightly fudged "right" it should nonetheless be what people strive to impress upon law makers.


The Declaration of Independence declares that each human being has : "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." With that comment is an implied agreement as stressed in the Constitution under the Fifth Amendment that even the government cannot take that life from you without some due process.

I find it laughable that those who support gun ownership believe that there is some right spoken of in the Second that is not there, nor will they find it in the debates over the topic, yet cannot seem to find a right that is spoken of for the life of the unborn.
 
All the polling data seems to suggest otherwise..??

This is only partially true however. Let's look at a big sample from Gallup that shows us trends over a period of several years, rather than just taking one snapshot:

On the question of "assault rifle" bans the trend line shows up that while the issue is generally split, support for a ban has fallen while opposition to a ban has increased.
Screen Shot 2018-02-20 at 10.42.35 AM.png

Overall, the trend lines show that overall the mood has shown that those in support of "more strict" laws are declining and those in support of maintaining the status quo has been going up.
Screen Shot 2018-02-20 at 10.46.27 AM.png

People talk about "semi automatic" weapon bans, but keep in mind that such a ban would basically include almost every handgun out there. There is universally almost no support for that.
Screen Shot 2018-02-20 at 10.45.50 AM.png

The NRA maintains a pretty favorable opinion - the attacks and blaming mass shootings on them is not working:
Screen Shot 2018-02-20 at 10.52.53 AM.png

The Republican Party has actually ticked slight up in terms of people's views about guns:
Screen Shot 2018-02-20 at 10.51.54 AM.png

However, people are not going to generally single issue vote on the issue of gun-control:
Screen Shot 2018-02-20 at 10.51.13 AM.png

People are generally not worried about being a victim of a mass shooting:
Screen Shot 2018-02-20 at 10.51.27 AM.png

And at least in this sample, the concept of "more guns makes us safer" is held by a majority of respondents:
Screen Shot 2018-02-20 at 10.52.15 AM.png

Now look - this data can be debated - I accept that. Some of these have only been asked once and you cannot really identify a trend from those. I will 100% agree that there is data that shows people largely support things like background checks for all etc etc. I think that is a legitimate idea - but it is important to note that the shooter in Texas recently should have had his information reported under current law and no one ever actually reported it. Now in Florida we hear that law enforcement was well aware of this kid and called to his home dozens of time. At what point do we ask why government is currently doing their job?

To just say that there is widespread support for a ban on assault weapons, and several other statements that get kicked around in the public debate, is at best telling only half the truth.
 

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That was my point. Its not just a failure on individual Presidents but also of the representatives of the "people" of whatever colour. Its a general failure.

That accepts the construct that the "people" inherently want to see things like assault weapon bans etc. Based on the data and trends posted above I don't think that is automatically true. There are certainly some things that have broad agreement - but when you have one side approaching the debate with the premise of "you have blood on your hands" it is little wonder things fall apart in short order.

At what point does it become enough? Is 17 dead acceptable in the "cost benefit" equation of right to own a gun versus a citizens right to life? Without wanting to open the can of worms...it appears...I say that with a degree of caution as I don't want to generalise too much...but it seems that those who hold the right to life precious (as in the pro-life camp) are almost the same demographic that hold true to the rights of the 2nd!

I don't agree with this premise. You can be pro-life and pro-gun. Supporting the right to own a gun doesn't equate to supporting someone using that gun to murder someone. No one has the "right" to do that. The vast majority of gun owners do not go out and commit a crimes or kill anyone. Those two views are perfectly consistent in my view.

But isn't that exactly what happened with regard to the Volsted Act...18th Amendment?

In a general sense...yes. And look at how poorly that turned out. Enacting public policy based mostly on emotional whims will generally result in poor public policy.
 
The second amendment doesn't even need to be changed! It only needs to be interpreted the way it was met to be understood.

It is not ONE tragedy. . .it is 239 massacres since year 2000! Get your facts straight! How many more tragedies do you need before YOU take some action?

If you think that any of the kids and any of the parents and family member who have been close to those 239 tragedies can live their days feeling secure, you are delusional!

My own son and his wife moved to Australia 15 years ago because they didn't want their son (who is now 19) to have to go to school through metal detectors and feel unsafe!

And the tide is turning, and hopefully will swallow and bury all the NRA brain washing propaganda and the 48 Republicans and 4 Democrat senators who have blood on their hands.

Poll: Majorities of Both Parties Favor Increased Gun Restrictions : NPR
https://www.npr.org/.../poll-majorities-of-both-parties-favor-increased-gun-restrictions

And please note that this poll dates from 2017, after the Vegas massacre, BEFORE this latest school massacre!

I'd encourage you to take a look at the Gallup slides posted above. As I stated in that reply I think there are certainly things that have some broad agreement, but bans etc are not part of that equation - nor are voters (throughout all of these shootings) shifting to single issue voting on the gun control issue.
 
This is only partially true however. Let's look at a big sample from Gallup that shows us trends over a period of several years, rather than just taking one snapshot:

Now look - this data can be debated - I accept that. Some of these have only been asked once and you cannot really identify a trend from those. I will 100% agree that there is data that shows people largely support things like background checks for all etc etc. I think that is a legitimate idea - but it is important to note that the shooter in Texas recently should have had his information reported under current law and no one ever actually reported it. Now in Florida we hear that law enforcement was well aware of this kid and called to his home dozens of time. At what point do we ask why government is currently doing their job?

To just say that there is widespread support for a ban on assault weapons, and several other statements that get kicked around in the public debate, is at best telling only half the truth.

Even Gallup disagrees with itself :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::

http://news.gallup.com/poll/220595/support-stricter-gun-laws-edges.aspx

Politics
October 16, 2017

Support for Stricter Gun Laws Edges Up in U.S.

by Megan Brenan

Story Highlights
  • 60% of Americans think laws covering the sale of firearms should be stricter
  • Assault weapons ban has gained support, but public is evenly split
  • 71% of Americans say handguns shouldn't be banned

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- In the wake of the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history, more Americans support tighter controls on guns. Six in 10 U.S. adults now support stricter laws covering the sale of firearms, up from 55% last year and the highest percentage since 2004. However, the public is sharply divided over an assault weapons ban, though the 48% in favor exceeds last year's record-low 36%. Americans still widely oppose an outright ban on handguns, but more favor such a ban than in 2016.
 
I'd encourage people to click and read your link - as it basically says mostly what I already presented.

Is there something I posted above that you feel is unclear?

The poll I posted was taken 10 days after yours, and by the same outfit. Is there something you do not understand by the words "Support for Stricter Gun Laws Edges Up in U.S."?
 
The poll I posted was taken 10 days after yours, and by the same outfit. Is there something you do not understand by the words "Support for Stricter Gun Laws Edges Up in U.S."?

I'm talking about trend lines over several years - in some cases decades - as presented above. You are referencing a snapshot during this time period.

Looking at the chart presented from 1991 through essentially the present there are multiple points you could say that the support for stricter gun laws edged up. However, that does not buck the overall trend since 1991 as of yet.

Screen Shot 2018-02-20 at 10.46.27 AM.png

It is like the stock market. Markets rise and fall on a day to day basis, but over time the trend has been that they have gone up. You can point to a particular snapshot and time and say support has grown - and that can be a true statement.

However, it is an equally true statement to look at a broader picture over the last 25 plus years and say that the trend is going in the opposite direction of your assertion.
 
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I'd encourage you to take a look at the Gallup slides posted above. As I stated in that reply I think there are certainly things that have some broad agreement, but bans etc are not part of that equation - nor are voters (throughout all of these shootings) shifting to single issue voting on the gun control issue.

You are a few months behind and refuse to recognise that the tide is shifting. The kids in Florida will assure that gun control becomes a "single issue voting" for millions of millennial. . .and millions of their parents.

And the disgusting war that the GOP (with the help of the Russians trolls) are waging against those bright and courageous teenager will only make reasonable people more angry!

Even Trump had to already give a few crumbs to the cause. Have you heard about the new move on bump stocks? Not enough. . .but a real indication that the NRA and the politiciens with blood on their hands are running scared. They are trying to appease and take break the energy that has been unleashed. I sure hope they don't succeed!

By the way, your gallup polls trend stops at 2015. Maybe you should consider this latest gallup poll on how the majority feels about stricter gun control:

Support for Stricter Gun Laws Edges Up in US - Gallup News
news.gallup.com/poll/220595/support-stricter-gun-laws-edges.aspx
 
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