Thanksgiving: Deliverance from socialism

[Dr.Who]

Yeah, lets not mention the Native Americans who lived for millenia in a largely collectivist society who prevented them from starving. In return of course, they were forced from thier historic lands and subjected to horrible disease and explotation.

When you are having your Thanksgiving dinner, know what price was exacted on the Natives so that you can have that opportunity.

Are you suggesting that the indians did not trade money (or some equivalent) for labor among themselves?

The indians were not so collectivistic.

Then again they never developed much technology.

 

[Dr.Who]

....And, you're (obviously) a ReRon Reagan fan.

Whatta shocker.....

​

I can't take the mindless posts anymore.

Back on ignore!

 

[Dr.Who]

An economics professor at said he had never failed a single
student before but had, once, failed an entire class. That class had insisted that socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer. The professor then said ok, we will have an experiment in this class on socialism.

All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A. After the first test the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy.

But, as the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too; so they studied little.. The second test average was a D! No one was happy.

When the 3rd test rolled around the average was an F.

The scores never increased as bickering, blame, name calling all
resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else. All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great; but when government takes all the reward away; no one
will try or want to succeed.

http://messages.fantasysports.yahoo...general&tid=76981&mid=76981&tof=17&so=R&frt=2

 

[Dr.Who]

Today on my way to lunch I passed a homeless guy with a sign that read
голова болит секс
Vote Obama, I need the money.
голова болит секс

*

голова болит секс I laughed.

Once in the restaurant my server had on a Obama 08 tie, again I laughed as he had given away his political preference–just imagine the coincidence. When the bill came, I decided not to tip the server and explained to him that I was exploring the Obama redistribution of wealth concept. He stood there in disbelief while I told him that I was going to redistribute his tip to someone who I deemed more in need–the homeless guy outside. The server angrily stormed from my sight.

I went outside, gave the homeless guy $10, and told him to thank the server inside, as I’ve decided he could use the money more. The homeless guy was grateful.
At the end of my rather unscientific redistribution experiment, I realized the homeless guy was grateful for the money he did not earn, but the waiter was pretty angry that I gave away the money he did earn even though the actual recipient deserved money more. I guess redistribution of wealth is an easier thing to swallow in concept than in practical application.

http://votingtruth.com/

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Are you suggesting that the indians did not trade money (or some equivalent) for labor among themselves?

The indians were not so collectivistic.

Then again they never developed much technology.

Yeah....whatta shame they couldn't have been more-inventive.​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

I can't take the mindless posts anymore.

Back on ignore!

Another Reagan-lemming VANQUISHED!!!!!

 

[Mr. Shaman]

An economics professor at said he had never failed a single student before but had, once, failed an entire class.

Wow....political-insight from a Yahoo sports-forum...how risky.

Who's next....all o' those Poli-Sci Grads at the NASCAR-sites?

​

 

[Little-Acorn]

I can't take the mindless posts anymore.

Back on ignore!

You were reading shamman's posts?

Why?

 

[Dr.Who]

You were reading shamman's posts?

Why?

A few months (maybe longer) ago I put him on ignore. It was the first time I had ever used that feature. Then one day, I don't know why, I clicked on one of his posts; I think the topic was interesting. And lo and behold he actually said something that was not inane, something that included his own thoughts, and not just a link to something remotely related.

So I took him off of ignore.

THAT WAS A MISTAKE.

I am willing to debate with everyone else. There are those on the right whose posts I generally don't bother to read but they are not so annoying that they must be on ignore.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

THAT WAS A MISTAKE.

Yeah....there's nothing more-risky than comparing two conflicting-opinions....especially for "conservatives" (who prefer someone else do all o' their comparing, for them....preferably a Cleric).

​

 

[Gipper]

Today on my way to lunch I passed a homeless guy with a sign that read
голова болит секс
Vote Obama, I need the money.
голова болит секс

*

голова болит секс I laughed.

Once in the restaurant my server had on a Obama 08 tie, again I laughed as he had given away his political preference–just imagine the coincidence. When the bill came, I decided not to tip the server and explained to him that I was exploring the Obama redistribution of wealth concept. He stood there in disbelief while I told him that I was going to redistribute his tip to someone who I deemed more in need–the homeless guy outside. The server angrily stormed from my sight.

I went outside, gave the homeless guy $10, and told him to thank the server inside, as I’ve decided he could use the money more. The homeless guy was grateful.
At the end of my rather unscientific redistribution experiment, I realized the homeless guy was grateful for the money he did not earn, but the waiter was pretty angry that I gave away the money he did earn even though the actual recipient deserved money more. I guess redistribution of wealth is an easier thing to swallow in concept than in practical application.

http://votingtruth.com/

Good experiment. Proves redistribution of wealth does not work. Once the waiter figures out his efforts will go uncompensated, he will join the homeless guy. This is what occurred in most communist societies. But hey the lefties will never stop believe-in...

 

[Bunz]

Oh please. You are another American with unreal grievances. Sad.

What grievances do I have and how are they unreal? The funny thing is that everything that I posted is fact.
The fact that you seem to be another who cannot fathom something that doesnt fit thier narrow view of the world is what is sad.

The native Americans were mistreated, but lets remember they were savages in most cases.

It is nice to see that we can agree that Natives were mistreated and in some cases continue to be. Then you get into another very narrow view and decide to put a misplaced label on a group, without realizing that by definition, the Europeans were far more savage.

The tribes were killing, torturing, and enslaving each other for millenia - well before the first white man showed up.

I really should send you a reading list to check out.

They lived as hunter gathers and few had written language.

Language written as Europeans understood it, of course you forget the massive collective cultivation of maize. Then of course this overlooks all of the examples of thoughts and words "written".
A perfect example from my home state would be the totem pole.

They had not even invented the wheel.

You need to get an education and then come talk me about Native issues. You are far to ignorant for me to catch you up with reality at this point. I will still point out that more than a few different tribal groups did have what you would call the wheel. The point that is flying way the heck over your head is that they didnt need the wheel. They managed just fine without, it wasnt lack of brainpower that didnt "invent" the wheel, it was lack of necessity.

Also, we have zero idea how long it would have taken any culture to develop the wheel if they were to exist without contact to those who had already "invented" the wheel. Who knows how long it would have taken the various European tribes to come up with the wheel without contact with the Romans.

Their culture sucked and was destroyed.

Sucked according to who? What if I dont like your "culture" is it alright for me to destroy you and anyone else like you? I doubt it.

No one alive is responsible for their demise.

Now that is highly debatable. Just curious if you believe that the holocaust happened? If so, was it a crime against humanity?

So, get over it and quite your *****ing.

Happy Thanksgiving All...

Yeah! another rude and pathetic Conservative who wants to make random claims that are long proved incorrect or simply idiotic. Welcome to the board, when you get infractions for being an asshole or creating pointless threads with nothing but vitriol and not contributing to any real discussion........... you can ***** to someone who cares.

 

[Bunz]

Are you suggesting that the indians did not trade money (or some equivalent) for labor among themselves?

In all the reading I have done, I havent seen an example where they widely traded for labor. Now of course you can make labor mean a lot of things, but in the sense of someone "employing" another for some sort of trade,
not that I know of. There was of course everyone contributing in thier own way to the collective community. There was also trade, both intra and inter tribally, most often item for item, not labor as you describe.

The indians were not so collectivistic.

Ah but they were much more collective than they were capitalistic.
This exists today in many existing Native cultures throughout the Americas. I think another perfect example happening today is the annual whale hunts that happen on the Arctic coast of Alaska. Where the entire community is given a share of the resource even though they themselves contributing little to nothing to the actual effort.

Then again they never developed much technology.

Once again, this is mildly amusing. There are a number of notable Native American inventions, but I dont think the amount of technology one culture develops is a great measurement tool, especially when comparing a new world/old world. They did not have the chance to trade what we could consider technologies.
Either way, look at how the Native invention of a Kayak has spread around the world and has even become an olympic event. Not to mention what very well could be the oldest evolution into what is modern team sports.
I could go on with a ton of examples all night, but you get my point.

 

[Bunz]

Squanto should have let them starve.

 

[Dr.Who]

In all the reading I have done, I havent seen an example where they widely traded for labor. Now of course you can make labor mean a lot of things, but in the sense of someone "employing" another for some sort of trade,
not that I know of. There was of course everyone contributing in thier own way to the collective community. There was also trade, both intra and inter tribally, most often item for item, not labor as you describe.

What do you suppose they used money for?

Ah but they were much more collective than they were capitalistic.
This exists today in many existing Native cultures throughout the Americas. I think another perfect example happening today is the annual whale hunts that happen on the Arctic coast of Alaska. Where the entire community is given a share of the resource even though they themselves contributing little to nothing to the actual effort.

I suppose they were. So are families. Might it be that each tribe was a whole lot smaller than most cities today and consisted of a lot more people who were inter-related?

Once again, this is mildly amusing. There are a number of notable Native American inventions, but I dont think the amount of technology one culture develops is a great measurement tool, especially when comparing a new world/old world. They did not have the chance to trade what we could consider technologies.

I would agree that the level of technology is not the end-all and be-all of how to measure the worth of a society. That is probably why I added it as an aside.

Either way, look at how the Native invention of a Kayak has spread around the world and has even become an olympic event. Not to mention what very well could be the oldest evolution into what is modern team sports.
I could go on with a ton of examples all night, but you get my point.

I see the native Americans as a diverse groups of peoples who had a lot of valuable experiences to offer the world and were given the same rights that God gave everyone else.

What I don't see is that their experience is strong enough evidence that collectivistic living is right for everyone or even good for everyone. Their cultures certainly had many of the ills that other cultures had. I don't even see their limited use of collectivism as evidence that it can work with any type of civilization other than theirs and not even proof that it worked all that well for them or that they were mostly collectivistic rather than a unique mix.

And without a doubt even if their system did work good for them (debatable), those in the US who want to impose collectivism on those who do not want it are destroyers of liberty.